Christians just don’t seem to understand

I really hope this guy isn’t representative of the modern Christian. I went to school with him a long time ago. He found me on Facebook and wanted to meet up with me sometime. I told him I am a liberal atheist and I hope that is ok. He, of course, said that was ok.. he is “commanded to love everyone”. Well, the following debate ensued today. I’m pretty sure it’s over. Follow his logic and see what you think. Remember, THIS IS REAL and I didn’t edit one letter of this (his spelling really is this bad). I’ll bold his comments and leave my normal. It started when he asked me…

Adam why r u that way?

I found religion to be false. Based on myths. I can’t spend my life worshipping a god that has NO proof of his existence. I’m too rational and skeptical for that.

Its bout that its a relationship with him budIts bout that its a relationship with him bud

With who?!? I believed for 17 years. Why do you? And why do you not believe in Zeus or Thor? You are an atheist when it comes to those gods… I just go one god further than you.

Yea rite those r made up adam i have a relationship with god and jesus u r blind and deaf adam im a born again child of god he loves me and u and every1 adam and thats the truth u became blind

Nathan, I remember you as a sweet, loving guy, so I’m going to assume you have the right intentions here. Hopefully, you remember me as a very intelligent and honest person. I run an atheist website called atheismresource.com, so yes, I do have the answers to your questions… if you really want them. I trained to be a youth minister and a missionary, so I probably know the bible and religious history better than anyone you know. But, once you hear what I have to say, you can’t ‘unhear’ it. Are you ok with that? If you use religion as a crutch, I don’t want to knock it out from underneath you.

I’m home for the weekend, so it will have to wait until monday. In the meantime, you can read about why I don’t believe in the bible and where man came from on the EVOLUTION and BIBLE tabs on my website. Also, ask yourself a couple simple questions:

1) Why has god never healed an amputee?

2) Why does god hide all evidence of his existence?

3) Is the bible really the word of god and is it a “moral” book?

4) Why don’t you believe in any of the other 5,000 gods man has created in its history? Why is your god unique?

5) Is there anything that could happen that would make you NOT believe in god?

Answer these questions and I will be glad to answer them, if you honestly want to know. Worldwide, there are tens of millions of people that are “good without god”, and the number grows daily. I’m one of them. I am just as moral as you. I just don’t need heaven and hell to motivate me to do the right thing.

Yea he has healed ampetee i dont believe like u im stil the same way i was then and differant its not a crutch its life and love ok

This is hard to do from my phone, but since you want to start with #1, when and where did god heal an amputee? Please provide evidence.

U do it on the phone 2 like me its not n the bible but i know he did theres alot of things not n there god wanted sirten things n there

Please try to find proof of an amputee regrowing an arm or leg in modern history. Do you believe the bible is perfect and written by god?
Yes i do believe that do u

As to the amputee claim, the burden of proof is on you. I have searched for years and have never found one verifiable claim of a person regrowing an arm or a leg from prayer (or any other reason). Prayer has the same statistical chance of working as asking a lamp for something. I will show you how that is so if you’d like.

But, more importantly, to your claim that the bible is perfect and written by god. Are you aware of all the inaccuracies, fallacies, and evil in the bible? It says some pretty horrible things. Do you need examples? Why did god put those things in there? He commands people to kill those that work on Sundays. You ever drive a truck on Sunday? Should I stone you like the bible says?

Also, what about the ten commandments? First of all, it isn’t unique. Hammurabi’s code predates the Ten Commandments and share a lot in common:

1.I am Adonai Your God. (Exodus)
2.Thou shalt have no other gods before Me. (Exodus)
3.You shall not take the Name of Adonai Your God in vain. (Exodus)
4.Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it separate. (Exodus)
5.Honor your father and your mother. (Hammurabi, Code #195 and others)
6.You shall not murder. (Hammurabi Code #210, 214, 229, 230 and others)
7.You shall not commit adultery. (Hammurabi, Code # 129-133 and several others)
8.You shall not steal. (Hammurabi, Codes #6, 8, 9, 21, 22 and many others)
9.You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. (Hammurabi, Code #1-3 and many others)
10.You Shall not covet anything that belongs to thy neighbor. (wife/property)… (Hammurabi, Codes #6,8,9,21,22, and others)

The only thing that is really different is that MAGIC 10 from the bible start with spiritual principles (kind of selfish of god, don’t you think) instead of civil/criminal ones. See, people can have good ideas without a mythical creator telling us what to think.

Secondly, the bible actually list several versions of the ten commandments… so the ones you hear most often aren’t really the “real” list. Here is a good explanation of the biblical differences from PostiveAtheism.com. You’d think something as important as the 10 biggest commandment from god should be agreed upon… or at least edit out one version so as not to confuse believers (or give atheists something to laugh about).

Lastly, and most importantly are the things that the ALMIGHTY MORAL GOD left out (and included). So, he only has room for 10 (nice round number)… which to choose and in what order? He must have concluded, “Sure, let’s make the first 40% all about me”.

Talk back to your parents? Die. Have sex with an animal? Die. Homosexual? Die. Cheat on your spouse? Die. Not believe in god. Die. And, according to Malachi 2:1-4, if you are a priests and don’t “lay it to heart to give glory to [god's] name” he won’t kill you, but he “will corrupt your seed, and spread dung upon your faces.” Sweet, at least they don’t die. Keep in mind, god doesn’t mean die eventually. In all cases, he means immediately and typically by the hands of your friends and family in the town (or just outside it… can’t have all those dead bodies polluting the streets) where everyone can watch and even participate, as long as you brought your own stone… and you are a man.

But most importantly, to me, are the fact that things we would consider VERY immoral like rape, child molestation, and genocide were left out of the BIG LIST by the man with all the answers. Hmmm, curious. Seems like humans have come up with better answers on how to live life since then that trump the ten commandments.

We treat women as equals and have abolished slavery… two things the bible wouldn’t have supported. The bible repeatedly makes women unequal to men and supports the owning of slaves. Sad that non-believers had to change those things. Of course, Christians like to take credit for ending slavery. They actually used the bible once to support it and to justify ending it. amazing when you can use the same source to win both sides of an argument… that’s reliable.

Let me end with two simple questions? Can you, Nathan, come up with a better, more moral list than god? Well, you say, “No, because god is perfect.” But, if you replaced the first four commandments with NO RAPE, NO GENOCIDE, NO CHILD MOLESTATION, and NO SLAVERY (or added them), you would have a better, more moral list than god… most would agree. Do you?

The bible says 2 refraine 4rm debate and god is more perfect then u and i god bless u adam i wil b prayin 4 u and ur soul my brother

Really? That’s your answer? Where does the bible say to refrain from debate? It doesn’t. It DOES command you to share the gospel. Did you even read what I wrote? If you can’t answer those simple questions about your faith then it isn’t very strong. How is god more perfect if he fails to condemn rape, genocide, slavery, and child molestation? You have to give reasonable answers to these things!
He does condem althose things and yes it does say 2 share the gospel

You can’t just say things like, “The bible says 2 refraine 4rm debate” and “He does condem althose things” and not provide evidence!

I’ll give you scripture to prove my point:

SLAVERY -

When a man strikes his male or female slave with a rod so hard that the slave dies under his hand, he shall be punished. If, however, the slave survives for a day or two, he is not to be punished, since the slave is his own property. (Exodus 21:20-21 NAB)

If you buy a Hebrew slave, he is to serve for only six years. Set him free in the seventh year, and he will owe you nothing for his freedom. If he was single when he became your slave and then married afterward, only he will go free in the seventh year. But if he was married before he became a slave, then his wife will be freed with him. If his master gave him a wife while he was a slave, and they had sons or daughters, then the man will be free in the seventh year, but his wife and children will still belong to his master. But the slave may plainly declare, ‘I love my master, my wife, and my children. I would rather not go free.’ If he does this, his master must present him before God. Then his master must take him to the door and publicly pierce his ear with an awl. After that, the slave will belong to his master forever. (Exodus 21:2-6 NLT)

When a man sells his daughter as a slave, she will not be freed at the end of six years as the men are. If she does not please the man who bought her, he may allow her to be bought back again. But he is not allowed to sell her to foreigners, since he is the one who broke the contract with her. And if the slave girl’s owner arranges for her to marry his son, he may no longer treat her as a slave girl, but he must treat her as his daughter. If he himself marries her and then takes another wife, he may not reduce her food or clothing or fail to sleep with her as his wife. If he fails in any of these three ways, she may leave as a free woman without making any payment. (Exodus 21:7-11 NLT)

Slaves, obey your earthly masters with deep respect and fear. Serve them sincerely as you would serve Christ. (Ephesians 6:5 NLT)

RAPE -

As you approach a town to attack it, first offer its people terms for peace. If they accept your terms and open the gates to you, then all the people inside will serve you in forced labor. But if they refuse to make peace and prepare to fight, you must attack the town. When the LORD your God hands it over to you, kill every man in the town. But you may keep for yourselves all the women, children, livestock, and other plunder. You may enjoy the spoils of your enemies that the LORD your God has given you.(Deuteronomy 20:10-14)

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.(Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.

GENOCIDE -

This is what the Lord of hosts has to say: ‘I will punish what Amalek did to Israel when he barred his way as he was coming up from Egypt. Go, now, attack Amalek, and deal with him and all that he has under the ban. Do not spare him, but kill men and women, children and infants, oxen and sheep, camels and asses.’ (1 Samuel 15:2-3 NAB)

The men of Israel withdrew through the territory of the Benjaminites, putting to the sword the inhabitants of the city, the livestock, and all they chanced upon. Moreover they destroyed by fire all the cities they came upon. (Judges 20:48 NAB)

Ok, Nathan, if you think that these scriptures are made up, please, grab your bible and look them up? Why are they in there if god wrote the bible? I though he was perfect?!?!?

Please provide me ANY scriptures where Jesus or God condemn any of these actions. You won’t be able to. Remember, a lot of the “peace and love” stuff preached to us from the pulpit aren’t from the bible (or they ‘cherry pick’ the good stuff and ignore the rest).

Can you provide me with ANY proof that god is good (and these scriptures I’ve provided are wrong) or that he even exists?

He is what bible u read the bibles bout love and correction 2 u and i

You can’t pick what parts of the bible you like… you either accept the whole thing or none of it (like me). The Quran has good messages too, but it also tells people to kill non-believers (like the bible). Can you justify all the evil in the bible with a few passages about loving thy neighbor?

And why do you have to believe in god to be a good person? I can love my neighbor too and be a good person without god telling me to do it. I don’t need god to tell me not to murder and not to steal to not do it. In fact, there are tens of millions of atheists who don’t believe in god but have never killed anyone or stolen anything. How do you explain that?

And, you never answered my main question… is there anything that could ever make you no believe in god?

I LOVE the whole bible its my life . the quran is a lie

How can you LOVE scriptures like:

If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

Anyone who is captured will be run through with a sword. Their little children will be dashed to death right before their eyes. Their homes will be sacked and their wives raped by the attacking hordes. For I will stir up the Medes against Babylon, and no amount of silver or gold will buy them off. The attacking armies will shoot down the young people with arrows. They will have no mercy on helpless babies and will show no compassion for the children. (Isaiah 13:15-18 NLT)

The Quran says most of the same things. They have just as much proof for their god as you do. Why do you not believe in Zeus? You said he’s made up. But, millions of people used to worship him. They built temples to him. They had holy books about him. They even had holidays and rituals for him… just like Christianity. So, how is your god different?

The bible doesnt say 2 secretly worship other gods. the qurans a lie adam because ur family cant give u eternal life

I never said the Quran was true. I don’t believe it anymore than the bible. I’m simply saying that the bible and the Quran are very similar.

They both preach a monotheistic belief:
The Quran: “Your god is one god; there is no god but He, Most Gracious, Most Merciful.” Sura 2:163
“Say, ‘O followers of the scripture, let us come to a logical agreement between us and you: that we shall not worship except God; that we never set up any idols besides Him, nor set up any human beings as lords beside God.’” Sura 3:64

The Bible: “Jesus answered: ‘The most important one is this: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one’.” Mark 12:29
Jesus said: “Worship the Lord your God, and serve Him only.” Matth.4:10
Apostle Paul said: “We know that an idol is nothing at all in the world and that there is no God but one.” 1Cor.8:4

Drop the Quran. That wasn’t an important point.

Answer my last questions: “Why do you not believe in Zeus? You said he’s made up. But, millions of people used to worship him. They built temples to him. They had holy books about him. They even had holidays and rituals for him… just like Christianity. So, how is your god different?”

U believe the quran

No, I don’t believe in the Quran. I also don’t believe in the bible. I was simply pointing out to you that they teach very similar things. I have about 50 examples if you want them
I do believe n the bible and it says that blasphimers wil have a place n the lake of fire

Yes, Revelation (20:11-15) says the wicked, along with death and Hades, are cast into the lake of fire. I guess Death and Hades are different from Satan? It also says, “The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.” So, I guess if you are right, I’ll be judged according to my actions… which are pretty good.

In the meantime, you will live on earth supporting a system (church) that oppresses woman and gay people and is responsible for more deaths than any single group in history. Are you ok with that?

How are you so sure the bible is right? If it was written by men, and not by god, as there is ample evidence to show (more if you need to see it), then why do you believe in it? Believing in god is one thing. Believing in the bible is another.

You know that the gospels were written by people that never met Jesus, right? the church doesn’t argue this fact. And, the bible (now in print in 70 versions) has changed for over 1,200 years before the accepted King James Version was published in the 1500′s. Books were added, taken out, and edited along the way. Historians know this to be fact. So, how is it still the perfect, unalterable word of god… when it has been altered so many times?

Do u believe n the holy ghost yes or no

No, I don’t. There is no evidence for it! Do you believe in unicorns, fairies, or leprechauns? No, of course not. However, I can fake speaking in tongues and prophesying as good as any Christian. I have done it several times and had people interpret them as words from god… even though I made them up! Why do you believe in the holy Ghost? Do you believe in any other kind off Ghost?
Cause it dwells n me

Really? You are just that special? What tells you it dwells in you? Any physical proof? Describe it… i bet it sounds a lot like the exact same peace and joy I have. IT’S CALLED HUMAN EMOTIONS!

I love you Nathan. I really do. You were a good guy when I knew you. But, is there no place left for reason in your life? If I told you that the world was going to explode tomorrow, you’d expect proof. But, you are ok to believe your religion with no proof. You just ‘have faith’. Faith is gullibility dressed up like a virtue – it’s the suspension of all critical thinking. There are people that think the rapture will occur next May – and use the bible to prove it – are they right?

No u dont its not emotion god bless u and love u

So are the Christians right about next May? Do you think god is coming back? You still didn’t answer me how the Holy Spirit is any different than a normal human emotion. How is it different than an imaginary friend? It can’t do anything.
Yes he is but he knows when

So, are you saying god is returning next year?
Nobody knows

What do you think? When do you think he will return? There have been around 75 prophesies as to his return from 1033AD until today… none have been right, obviously. At what point will people stop guessing? Maybe he doesn’t like us and is never coming back? I mean, we did nail him to a cross and now wear the symbol of his death around our necks… that’s not real inviting. (SEE THOSE FAILED PROPHECIES HERE)
I d k only god does

So, is never an option? Couldn’t god therefore choose to never return? Why do you think god has never given any proof of his existence? He wants us to believe in him, right? And, you never did answer the amputee question (proof) or is you could stop believing in god for any reason…
God is comin back . ur a fool and a lier and blasphimer adam

Whoa big guy… I didn’t personally attack you at all. Why are you getting personal all of a sudden. I am trying to have a rational conversation with you and you are attacking me. I’m pretty sure anyone reading this wouldn’t call me a fool when I am providing evidence and logic to back up my claims. When did I lie?
Im not u just the way u believe

So, the way I believe is a lie? You can’t call me a liar without proof. I’ve asked for proof of anything several times from you. If you are driving, fine, then come back later when you can send me links to something that proves Noah’s ark, who healing of an amputee, or any of the other claims you’ve made.
Not u . ur beilfs

You said I am a fool and a liar! How can I not take offense to that? Well, I hope when you have some time to provide me with evidence, you will, and show me how I am wrong. Show me clear proof that these things are real and I will change my belief and tell god, when I get to heaven, that Nathan Tennis lead me back to the light. Here’s your chance. Until then, I have to side with the answer that there is no god and the bible was written by men trying to explain the world around then and gain power from the masses – it’s simpler and has far more proof.
And thats wrong there is god

Do you see how just saying “there is a god” is the same as saying “there are unicorns”. You HAVE TO provide proof. Why is there a god? What has he done? Name one thing that we used to answer with science that we now answer with religion? there are thousands of things that religion used to give us the answer for that science now does instead. So, the trend is moving my directions… not yours.
Ur wrong adam and u wil burn n HELL good bye

Wow, that’s some great Christian love.
Truth GOOD BYE

There was another long thread going on at the same time with him about why Noah’s Ark was a true story and he had seen evidence of it.  He said every word of the bible was true. So I asked…

“Ok, then why does the bible get so much wrong… and we can prove it!

1) There was never a world-wide flood. “The waters stood above the mountains.”Noah’s flood covered the highest mountains, just like it says in Genesis 7:20. There isn’t enough liquid on earth to cover every mountain.

2) Noah’s ark isn’t possible (and the story existed before the bible anyway). If we assume that Noah took aboard five million species, that the gangplank was only twenty-five feet long, that each pair of animals had a space of six inches between them, that their average size was a measly three inches in length, then, in order to get into the boat within twenty-four hours, they would have to march up that gangplank at about thirty miles per hour! After the snails, slugs, and slower insects got through, the other animals could hit supersonic speeds and still not save Noah’s schedule.

3) The bible speaks of the “firmament” which was once a belief that the sun, moon, and stars sat in spheres that circled the earth. We now know this to be false. God spends one-sixth of his entire creative effort (the second day) working on a solid firmament. This strange structure, which God calls heaven, is intended to separate the higher waters from the lower waters. Genesis 1:6-8 (The bible writers thought the sky was a giant layer of water… they had no concept of the universe as we do).

4) The bible writers thought the earth was flat, had edges, and sat on four pillars. Were they right?

5) The bible writers knew nothing of genetics. “Then Jacob took fresh rods of poplar and almond and plane, and peeled white streaks in them, exposing the white of the rods. He set the rods that he had peeled in front of the flocks in the troughs, that is, the watering places, where the flocks came to drink. And since they bred when they came to drink, the flocks bred in front of the rods, and so the flocks produced young that were striped, speckled, and spotted” (30:37-39, NRSV). He thought he could change the breeding of goats based on colored rods. We know now this is genetic and not subject to silly superstition like colored rods.

6) “God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good.” God purposefully designed a system that ensures the suffering and death of all his creatures, parasite and host, predator and prey.

7) The bible bible says that the earth once stopped for one day to allow the armies of god to destroy their foes. Well, the entire earth would have ripped apart and gravity would have ceased. Oh wait, since god created physics, I guess he can just suspend the laws whenever he wants?

8) Genesis describes the moon as its own light… but we all know the moon does not produce light at all but simply reflects the sun. The writers of the bible didn’t know this.

There are tons more… so why is a divine book so full of errors. Why would god let man put so many wrong things in there? Did he want us to doubt him? Or, a simpler explanation… it was all written by man.”

This thread ended with him saying, “He is comin bac, He is comin bac, He is comin bac!” Then he blocked me. Please feel free to tell Nathan Tennis what you think. I can’t… I’m blocked. Probably that whole going to hell thing. Can’t be associated with someone that has beach front property on the Lake of Fire!
  • anon

    I've heard Christopher Hitchens say many times that he doesn't want Christianity to disappear completely because he enjoys the challenge of debate because it keeps his mind sharp. Where is this challenge? Its like shooting fish in a barrel.

  • http://rudd-o.com/ Rudd-O

    Sigh, man. I feel you.

    You are a smart individual, but I think you need to realize that when you tell a religious person "God does not exist" or anything remotely even close to that, what they actually hear is "YOUR MOM AND DAD AND OTHER ABUSERS ARE BAD PEOPLE WHO SYSTEMATICALLY LIED TO YOU". So you should not be surprised when he comes back at you with the equivalent of "MY DAD CAN BEAT YOU UP!" ("God is great and he will punish you").

    Do you not find it at least somewhat surprising that he regresses to this childlike state and attacks you? do you not see the parallels between his defensiveness and the defensiveness of an abuse victim who denies that he has been abused?

    When you speak of religion to a religious person, you are not speaking to him — you are speaking to his early childhood traumas. Reason does not work because the religious person has learned to systematically shut it off as a coping mechanism for the abuse he endured. They've just been — consciously or otherwise — incapacitated by their abusers (generally parents, schoolteachers, other authority figures) so they can't see the abuse. And, by trying to talk about this abuse to these victims, all you're bringing up is the negative feelings and having them associated with *you*.

    Christians understand. Oh, believe me, they do, they know full well that you are right. They just won't accept it, because acceptance of reality — and the itinerant chain of realizations and consequences that follow from said acceptance — would just be too painful to deal with.

    Re-posted at:

    http://rudd-o.com/en/archives/religious-people-do…

  • Jon

    The fact that you misspelled/slanged all of his comments and used (or at least attempted) proper grammar on all your replies shows the complete blind bias against his beliefs. I too am an Atheist. u unfortunately r makin the intelligent athiests look badd. troo intalektuals would not find wais to shut someone down. they wood discuss rathar then just shoot them down.

    You're just another small voice squeaking in a large world. Thinking they know what the fuck they are talking about.

    downboat.

    • Adam

      @ Jon: I swear to you as an honest human being, I changed NONE of his comments… not a single letter. I thought about cleaning them up for him, but that would have been intellectually dishonest too. I know he isn't an "average" Christian, but people like him exist all over the bible belt. I should know; I grew up in Springfield, MO – and went to church with a lot of them.

  • http://rudd-o.com/ Rudd-O

    Jon: you need to practice your reading comprehension. The author clearly said that he hasn't edited anything. It's in the first paragraph of the post.

    Your spelling — you call yourself an atheist and you can't even spell that word — makes me believe, not unreasonably too, that you are actually a religious person who found this article and grew a grudge, so you came here to post something, anything, even lies, to discredit the author. Very disgusting behavior on your part.

  • pilotingentropy

    He wasn't even reading what you wrote. Why did you continue to reply with so much information if you knew he wasn't looking at it? Your responses are great but wasted. It's hard debating with someone who can't process even basic ideas. You're playing pro tennis while he's sitting on the ground and rolling a ball from hand to hand. You can't win when your opponent isn't capable of playing! So why even play?

    • Adam

      @ pilotingentropy: For future readers. There are important issues raised here that some readers benefit from. It's here as a resource for arguments… even if the responses are lacking.

  • http://dumnezero.blogspot.com Dumnezero

    Next time show him this animation which symbolically represents what his faith is all about:

    http://i.imgur.com/6iJtS.gif

    :)

    It's very hard to reason with someone who doesn't actually use rational thinking. My method, which is not very easy and borders on the unethical, is to play endless mind-games with the believer till he/she can't handle it and has collapsed emotional defenses. Then I try to start up their rational bits, one baby-step at a time, which opens up the possibility for more rational debate.

    …It's borderline unethical because the person enters a sudden change of perspective which can cause unintended consequences. The best method implies doing it slowly, which is very hard on the internet, but not impossible (books are better).

    P.S. his spelling is horrible; such people have no respect for language (no wonder they're confused by a weird old story book).

  • Danielle

    Thank you for all the info I'm a non believer my self its great to have some info to argue with, I'm constantly preached to by my believer friends and often avoid the confrontation however I've grown quite irritated with it. So bravo and best to you. I'll be sharing this info from now on.

  • Conrad

    Hey Adam, I am a believer, but I understand your frustration with your friends lack of proof. If you have the time, I would love to have a conversation with you about this. I would like to refute some of your points and provide evidence for my beliefs. If you are willing, let me know.

    Thanks,

    Conrad

    • Adam

      @ Conrad: I e-mailed you… friendly challenge accepted.

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  • http://wading-in.net/walkabout Just Al

    As some explanation to the frightening and difficult-to-read points from Nathan, he did openly admit he was doing this from his phone, and I would guess one with fewer editing options than many of the advanced toys nowadays. Cut the spelling and shortcuts some slack.

    That said, I'm giving undue credit for calling them, "points." What he provided could charitably be called something between "assertions" and "excuses" – there really wasn't any attempt at evidence, logic, or reason in any single statement. His entire side of the exchange can be summed up with, "You are blind because you do not practice the wishful thinking that I do."

    I have to wonder how well Adam's point came across. Just being blocked is at least a small indication that Nathan was finding it far too discomforting to consider. Is this where he enlists his friends to gang up on Adam, or where he honestly starts to use his brain as more than an echo chamber?

  • Steve

    As everyone else who has commented has said. Nathan sounds like a 4 year old child with cell phone. I would very much like to see a debate on this topic between and someone with intelligence. Though that might be difficult to find, because someone who is intelligent would know that if they really got into this they would obviously lose the argument. Therefore they decide not to engage it head on. Rather hide behind their "faith" and ignore all logic. Though they do not lie when they say they love god. Love can and often does make people deny all logic and rational thought. So at least they can say they have that.

  • Mike Hunt

    Why does God hide all evidence of 'His' existance? He doesn't. If you cannot 'see' God it is because you are living in a world of illusion. God is not 'out there', but is 'within us'. Do you not have a heart to love with? A soul to search? A loss to grieve? A hand to lend? Arms to hug with? Do you not express compassion to your fellow man? Do you not wanted to be loved and to love? What more evidence do you need. If you do not believe in God, buy a Dog and love others the way your dog loves you.

    • Adam

      @ Mike: You didn't define "god" – you defined human biology and emotion. I don't believe in god or respect him any way. Yet, I have all those things you mentioned. My heart pumps blood… my brain does the loving and the searching. None of that proves god, it just proves that we have evolved to be compassionate which allows us to remain in a group, since avoidance of loneliness is a basic human instinct… one that made man create the concept of god in the first place. Even when you are all alone, you can pretend god hears you and cares about what you have to say. Buy a dog, Mike, and enjoy it's company – at least it's real.

  • wolfe

    Not all Christians are this dumb or intellectually uncurious as this guy was. He's quite the retard. He wouldn't be able to debate much of anything with anyone and actually make any sene, much less a sentence.

  • Elyse

    As someone raised in a very devout Lutheran household, who now considers herself an agnostic, I find reading this painful on all accounts. Nathan probably doesn't know much about his own religion, and he is just projecting what he has picked up from other misguided Christians around him. You can't have a "debate" with someone who doesn't understand the point of view that he is trying to defend…it is futile!

    However, I take issue with your arguments and notions…you seem to think that atheists, yourself especially, as well as the group as a whole, are a stand-up group of people. In my experiences, all people are essentially crap.

    Also, I don't know why you constantly assert that you have to accept or reject the Bible, Koran, etc., as a whole. While I believe the Bible is the work of men, and not an infallible document divinely handed down from a bearded man on high, I find some of its contents edifying, enlightening, and informative.

    Just as David sees his god in the beauty of nature, and I also am in awe at Earth–yes there is pain and destruction, but things fit together in a complex and systematic way.

    Even after having a change of beliefs, I attended church while visiting my parents, and I hit upon the scripture James 1:27, "Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

    Perhaps I didn't need a scripture to make me be charitable, but even so, that scripture captures perfectly my goal in life: to help those in need and not get caught up in the mess of day to day life. This succinct scripture reminds me to be more selfless and less selfish.

    Again, to claim that you must reject or accept in entirety is just as illogical and closed-minded as many Christian beliefs. I think you should come off your high-minded high horse and open yourself up to the fact that the world isn't black and white, right or wrong, yes or no.

  • Rich C.

    @Elyse, I think what Adam is trying to say is that either the Bible is "the word of God" or it is not. There's no half-way. Truth claims ARE either true or false; right or wrong; there's no third option. There's no "it's the word of God but corrupted by man." There's no "I can hate gays because they're an abomination, but I can still eat shrimp." If it is the word of God, then believers should follow all of the rules, not just the ones they like. If it isn't, then we should all follow rules that make logical sense instead.

    We happen to know that there are a lot of errors, mistranslations, additions and subtractions in modern Bibles when compared to the oldest and most reliable ancient manuscripts. Most of these are inconsequential (spelling errors), but several of them are extremely important to modern Christian doctrine and belief (late additions include things like the Triune God, the Eucharist, references to Jesus being divine or "being God", references to Jesus rising up to Heaven, and the story of Jesus and the prostitute). This should at least get people leaning in the direction of thinking that the Bible is NOT "the word of God" and thus should not be considered sacred or infallible. It may contain some nuggets of wisdom, but so does Mein Kampf if you look hard enough.

    Ultimately, there are two possible valid ways to view the Bible (and Koran, for that matter), in my not so humble opinion.

    1) It is "the word of God". It is completely true and infallible, and thus worthy of following to the letter, basing laws on, etc. People holding this viewpoint should be prepared to explain a whole bunch of things that appear to be wrong in the Bible, and not by saying "God can do anything".

    2) It is not "the word of God". It is not always true, and thus not worthy of following to the letter, basing laws on, etc. Instead, it should be viewed as nothing more than a book that provides us with information about the culture, and beliefs of ancient Jews.

  • Jack

    Adam, it reads like your friend Nathan was texting from a phone while you started on a phone but soon switched to a computer. In texting, the primary focus is to get an idea across using the minimal number of characters possible. Most older phones have character limitations, much like twitter. You also probably decided early on, or were at least considering the idea, that you were going to publish this. At that point your communications began to be much much longer (and more careful in terms of grammar) while your friend remained in the original mode of just trying to have a conversation with you and you alone.

    You also took off the gloves first and then feigned innocence when he responded in kind with words like "fool" "liar" and "blasphemer". For example:

    "You just ‘have faith’. Faith is gullibility dressed up like a virtue – it’s the suspension of all critical thinking." Translation: You are a gullible fool who is lying to himself, aka, you are a fool and a liar.

    Another example:

    "Really? You are just that special? What tells you it dwells in you? Any physical proof? Describe it… i bet it sounds a lot like the exact same peace and joy I have. IT’S CALLED HUMAN EMOTIONS!"

    Here you have told him that his God is a delusion because he has no tangible proof to offer you. While you may be right, you're also wrong in the sense that you can't correct someone on the CAUSE of their feelings or, furthermore, the category those feelings fall into. It would be akin to him telling you that his parents love him, and you countering with, "Really? You are just that special? What tells you they love you? Any physical proof? Describe it… i bet it sounds a lot like their brains being flooded with hormones, neurotrophins, and pheromones when they held you as a baby, which is in reality an evolutionary trick to get them to care for you instead of killing and then eating you… IT’S CALLED HUMAN INSTINCT!"

    Would you be right? Technically, yes. Would you also be wrong? That's the subject of a more in depth philosophical debate.

  • Jack

    On another note, I hope Adam or Conrad intends to publish the results of their "friendly challenge", either on this forum or another. If so, please provide us with a link so that we may read the dialogue. Cheers!

  • ed

    This guy is clearly deluded and retarded. Don’t waste time forming coherent arguments, you’d be just as successful saying “god is silly”.