The best argument against Christianity…is the story of Christianity.

This is a YouTube video from Theoretical Bullshit We think it’s one of the best compilations of the things we find ridiculous, horrible, and utterly unbelievable about Christianity. We hope you find it to be a great source to use when explaining why you are an atheist too. SEE ALL HIS VIDEOS HERE

1. Decide to arrange for something other than yourself to exist

2. Create a being by the name of Lucifer with full knowledge that this being will betray you and ultimately cause an infinite amount of suffering unnecessarily.

3. Allow an unfathomably horrific dimension of existence known as ‘hell’ to emerge created by yourself or perhaps Lucifer and allow that dimension to continue existing. Do not override or prevent such a thing. It will come into play later

4. Create objective unchanging moral prescriptions and base them upon whatever your nature happens to be and then label any action or thought contrary to these standards ‘sin’.

5. Be sure to include in these moral prescriptions edits for social and psychological health such as encouragement to beat ones children with a rod, permission to buy and sell slaves and will them as property to ones children for life, requirement that women not be allowed to teach or have authority over men and of course the instruction to kill anyone who expresses interest in worshiping other gods.

6. Design a physical universe, planets, animals and vegetation all with the appearance of age be sure to include in your creation biological flaws redundancies and over-complications that appear as if they were the product of blind cumulative processes, perhaps a urinary tract that runs straight through the prostate gland or a unnecessary appendix prone to inflation and rupturing, or maybe a respiratory and digestive system forced to share the same plumbing, (these are just a few working ideas).

7. Create a garden with a tree in it bearing fruit that when eaten provides knowledge of your objective moral standards, and create two sentient cognitive beings without knowledge or awareness of these standards and instruct them not to eat from the tree which would enlighten them (in other words, arrange it so that only AFTER they eat from the tree are they capable of understanding that doing so was a violation of objective moral standards).

8. Warn these cognitive beings that they will undoubtedly die if they eat from this tree, but don’t follow through if they do, then endow a reptile with vocal cords, lips or some other means of speaking audibly to your cognitive beings enabling it to make a convincing case to one of them for eating from the tree. Do not prevent this or intervene.

9. Now by this point make sure your cognitive beings have been equipped for reproducing themselves and multiplying, and because one of them has sinned, arrange that every single one of their descendants until the end of time will be born with an inherited sinful nature, defaulting in a future of everlasting torment. Do not by any means allow each of them to be born with a clean slate and the capacity for living a sin-free life if they desire as you did with your first two prototypes.

10. Endow these cognitive beings with a ‘soul’ which keeps their thoughts and feelings and other cognitive faculties in existence forever one way or another. And then allow the sinfulness of these beings to be incompatible with your presence and let hell be the only other place that they can go once they exit the the physical world, do not make any attempt to spare these souls the eternal torment of hell such as allowing souls to stop existing all together or creating additional realm for them to reside besides with you or in hell.

11. Over time allow these beings to populate the earth you’ve creating, knowing with infallible certainty of course that after so many generations they will disappointed you enough that you find it necessary to kill all of them in a global flood and start all over from scratch.

12. Now when this happens (again right on schedule) make an exception for one small family of cognitive beings who you deem righteous of course it goes without saying that powers of omnipotence allow you to know, again, with infallible certainty that this family to will ultimately disappointing in the same way that those who you drowned, rendering the entire endeavor futile, but for now it’s best that you pretend not to know that.

13. Instruct this small disappointment of a family to populate the entire world all over again by way of incest.

14. Declare that until further notice the only way for these cognitive beings to rectify their sinful nature while on earth is to preform ritual animal sacrifice’s and other acts of senseless violence, additionally when certain sins are committed by any one of your cognitive beings demand that the surrounding community kill that being themselves.

15. In the meantime perform many epic miracles for all to see and intervene often with your physical creations, stop the sun in the sky, part the red sea, turn rivers into blood, and women into pillars of salt, give men superhuman strength, speak to the thousands with a booming voice from heaven etc, but before these cognitive beings become advanced enough in the area’s of science and communication that they could actually document, share, playback and verify these epic miracles, make sure you stop performing them all together .

16. Decide at some point that the most pressing of your objective moral prescriptions are not as obvious to these cognitive beings as you once thought, take this opportunity to chisel your top ten moral concerns into two tablets of stone and commission one of your cognitive beings to deliver these tablets to the masses, (Note to self: Roughly half of these moral concerns should center around pleasing you, praising you and remaining loyal to you)

17. After several thousand years impregnate one of these cognitive beings so that she gives birth to your son in physical form, who also happens to be you, at the same time.

18. Allow this cognitive being who is your son but also you to grow up and make several revisions to you/your son’s original standards of morality then arrange for other cognitive beings to torture and kill you/your son, authorize this sacrifice of yourself as a means of granting all other cognitive beings immunity from the consequences of their sinful nature, which you allowed them to be born with in the first place.

19. Do not however make this sacrifice free, establish that none of these cognitive beings shall be eligible for benefits of this sacrifice unless they actively believed that it happened, in other words, despite the quality of their intentions any cognitive beings henceforth who finds themselves unconvinced these events actually took place, is unwittingly designating themselves for the endless suffering of hell.

20. With that established, be sure to refrain from making it clear and knowable to the rest of the world that these events actually took place, ensure that no cognitive being after the first century has the luxury of witnessing your son who is also you say or do anything to indicate he was a living guy. Again, make sure that all of this occurs before advancements in science and technology are available to verify for those who aren’t present.

21. Arrange so that the only surviving record of these events will be offered anonymously by non-eye witness’s translated to a language different from the one you/ your son will speak written no earlier than thirty years after you/your son preformed these miracles and makes these clams, however do make sure that these records feature the precept that believing in something without evidence is morally superior to investigation and verification.

22. Be sure that after only a few decades the only accounts of these events in existence are copies of copies of copies which will be verifiably altered and added to in historically and theologically significant ways from generation to generation, sect to sect. Do not preserve the original copies of these accounts, do not protect them from revision, do not set in place any mechanism of protecting them from being interpreted in hundreds upon hundreds of ways most of which being heretical and therefore punishable.

23. Do not bother to employ your omniscience in such a way as to discern which of these cognitive beings are truly rebelling, and which simply don’t know how to distinguish you from other versions of god which do not in fact exist.

24. Do not make it clear to these beings that you are are even here. Allow for your very existence to remain an easily debatable, easily questionable, easily doubtable proposition, allow billions and billions of souls to be unthinkably tortured for all of eternity regardless of their character, integrity, bravery, responsibility or conduct because they had not correctly assumed that the right set of propositions were true by the time their lives on earth were over.

25. And finally… when all is said and done demand that you be praised for this plan.

Checkmate… there’s Christianity for you. 

  • NoriMori

    Awesome.

    One spelling nit-pick: In #8, “vocal chords” should be “vocal cords”. “Vocal chords” is a very common misspelling (used about half the time, and even seen in academic journals), but it’s still considered nonstandard.

  • Pingback: The best argument against Christianity…is the story of Christianity. | Modern Atheism

  • richard

    excellent. in the transcript, #23 is incomplete. Loved it.

  • http://www.squidoo.com/god-is-just-pretend Mike Wasdin

    This was great…I added it to my article I am writing:

    http://www.squidoo.com/god-is-just-pretend

    • Joshua Wensley

      I have corrected many of his errors. Please consider reading my corrections.

      • EvolutionKills

        No you haven’t, you make a list of 25 terribly ignorant and logically incoherent presuppositions which lack rudimentary internal consistency even with itself.

  • globalxa

    I happened to find your web site by accident, and found it intriguing because you mentioned John Horner and former Springfield resident and I assume Rolling Hills attendee. I am also a former resident and former attendee, and felt saddened by the news of Amy’s death. We were high school friends, but I moved after high school and sadly her roller coaster was just beginning. Although i’m unaware of who you are, I feel sad for you as well. I feel the older I get, the more questions I have in life, but I do know God is real and He is good, in spite of bad experiences, dumb people, bad examples, horrific tragedies, etc…I didn’t learn this in church, I learned this from traveling to more than 40 countries and going through series of painful losses in my own life. I have been angry, bitter, and questioned God on so many things, but I have to say I have only experienced love and an overwhelming peace in return. I hope your journey takes you there…

    • http://www.facebook.com/AdamBrown1981 Adam Brown

      I see no evidence to believe in god. I will not waste my life supporting a church that hurts so many people. The atheist community is a wonderful place. No going back.

    • http://profile.yahoo.com/E5OJF75NEKEARFKE6INOOMMEC4 christian

      So what evidence do u have?

      • Namealreadytaken

        He’s using information from the bible, (if your talking about the person in the video)

    • http://www.facebook.com/alfredo.quinterogarrido Alfredo Quintero G

      I’ve got to say it does not amaze me to see that your way to question the argument is playing the “shame on you” and “I am right, you’re wrong lalalalala” cards instead of presenting an inteligible argument away from personal experience. You could use some reading and exercising of your neurons to bring your reasoning skills back on shape…

    • bac

      Hahaha! What is this!?

      Atheist: It’s silly to be a Christian. This is why.

      Christian: To quote: “…God is real and He is good…” That is it. No supporting argument, no reasoning, no logic, nothing!

      This has to be the worst example of a counterargument I have ever witnessed. Why even type it? I am so frustrated by willfully ignorant people like you.

      • http://www.facebook.com/akiran.fb Kiran Nimbus

        you suck as individual than your religion does lmao :P

    • Unindoctrin8ed

      Actually no. You do not “know God is real”. You feel that god is real or you are convinced that god is real. These things are distinctly different.

  • carteronetwo2

    Adam, that is a well laid out argument and a great read. I’m
    wrapping up an ethics class right now at Drury University and your post reminds
    me of a lesson we had on John Stuart Mill who wrote On Liberty in 1859. Mill’s fundamental assertion states individual
    rights are in danger or vulnerable to the acts of the majority. Currently the
    word majority in the United States does not refer to the majority of Americans
    but instead the majority of voting Americans. In the last general election of
    2010 less than half or only 41% of all eligible voters participated (U.S.
    Census).

    Here in Springfield Missouri our public policies are often
    dominated by the Christian right. The simple act of enjoying a beer after a
    round of golf is not allowed at a public golf course here because voters turned
    it down the last time it went to a vote. Prior to the vote, the churches rose
    up and publically announced allowing beer sales on public property would ruin
    life as we know it for families, in this case their families.  For this would be in violation of the “objective
    unchanging moral prescriptions.”  I hope
    one day non-believers in our town will rise up and object in mass. Thanks for
    sharing the essay.
    Brian Shipman
    Drury University

    • Dylan

      I love the conversation in this room. God has his ways of explaining things and this is a good way. He speaks through the people in this room. He is changing the lives of all of you, weather you believe it or not. He loves and cares about all of us. The things he does are mind bottling, jaw dropping. Just think about that the creator of the universe loves you. That he wants you to know he loves you no matter how far you wonder off the path of enlightenment/eternal life. Atheism just scares me to think that we have no purpose that we just live and die. I don’t understand that, some great being had to make us, a cell didn’t pop up one day. God has always been here and always will be.
      The greatest story that is never told…….. God.

      • Truth be told

        So where is he and how does he think of us? With Jesus as important as he is, why was he not mentioned outside of the bible? Let alone that we can’t even prove who actually wrote at, and who the members of the council are that decided what books would be in it. All you Christians can do is provide vague answers to defend your faith and circular reasoning.

        • sierra

          Jesus does exist outside of the bible. He is also in the Quran. There’s lots of proof of who wrote it, and the counsels who decided which books they wpuld include in the bible. By the way, faith does not depend on proof. Proof depends on faith. You have faith too. Im sure you’ve once driven in your car on E, and blindly had the faith that you’ll make it to where you need to go before it stops. That does not need to be explained because it is simply faith.

      • JasperTheDunkinDonutsGuys

        Really? I say if god exists he/she should strike me dead right here and now and proof to everyone reading that he/she exists but she/he won’t because he/she doens’t exist and dont’ use the he/she acts in her/his own time argument with me….faith in a divine creator that watches your every move is a dillusion.

        • Alex

          God won’t “strike you down” for any reason unless it’s important. If you ask Him something like this He will say “You’ve got to be kidding me!”

          God loves life. He wouldn’t destroy you because you yourself asks it, you’re here for a reason, that is why He created you. If He created you, He won’t destroy you.

          It’s a stupid argument against the existance of God, anyway.

        • Kevin

          Have you thought that God wants to spare you instead of striking you dead as you say? You say our faith in God is a delusion but you can’t tell us why?

  • http://www.facebook.com/alfredo.quinterogarrido Alfredo Quintero G

    Well argumented post.
    Thanks for sharing it, found it by recom of a friend and loved it.

  • Sam

    If God is not real, why do you all push so hard against him?

    • Unindoctrin8ed

      Nobody is pushing against ‘him’. We are pushing against the irrational and dangerous belief in ‘him’ and the intolerable behaviour of those who believe in ‘him’. Two entirely different things. You either know that and were just trying to provoke a response or you simply refuse to accept that not everybody shares your delusion which means you are intellectually dishonest which happens to be one of the behaviours we would like to see you rid yourself of.

      • Ryan

        I’m curious of this “intolerable behavior” and the “dangerous” belief that you are talking about. From a Biblical Christian point of view, Christians are taught to love and have compassion on people. In fact faith-based organizations are usually the people on the front lines of need and human assistance. They go there motivated purely out of love for their human brothers and sisters. This doesn’t sound like “intolerable behavior.” I seriously hope that you are not basing your facts on the minority groups that like to yell out their unbiblical opinions such as the Westboro Baptist group. I do not agree at all with homosexuality, but I will still love the person. The majority of Christians are very loving people, but we all make mistakes. We are still human. You can’t expect everyone to be perfect all the time.

        On the flip side, you have said that God is a big delusion. I really want to know how if God does not exist how exactly we came to exist, and if so how?

        P.S – please don’t say evolution, if you look at any of the evidence you will find that it is immensely lacking…

        • Ryan

          Wow… I really messed up on the grammar of my question. There are way to many “how’s” So i will reword it.

          I really want to know, if God does not exist, how we came to exist is this universe?

          • http://www.facebook.com/dustin.page.142 Dustin Page

            VERY SIMPLE ANSWER, pick up a science book and read. drop the bible.

            • Chasmosaurus

              Umm…you ever read the parts of your science books that talk about the Big Bang? I’m not sure where you’re saying all that energy came from, given that no one in the scientific community has a testable explanation. Trust me, I’ve tried your suggestion many times, but the two (the science book and the Bible) point to each other too often for me to ignore.

              • EvolutionKills

                Quite clearly, your confirmation bias is running in overdrive. If there is no evidence or testable hypothesis for what happened before the ‘big bang’, then the scientific stance is ‘we don’t know’. If you equate ‘we don’t know’ with ‘therefore God did it’, then you are being both dishonest and delusional. The logic does not follow. The ‘God of the Gaps’ is not an explanation if reality, it is a logical fallacy.

                • Eric

                  So atheists are allowed all the ‘we don’t knows’ they want, but Christians don’t get any? The rules don’t change just because a different person is playing.

                  • EvolutionKills

                    Why are you a Christian? Presumably, because you believe in at least a handful of the basic dogmas of Christianity. Namely that god exists, and Jesus was his son, and that he died for our sins. Everything that distinguishes Christianity as a religion are these assumption, these beliefs, that you have to believe are true or else you aren’t a Christian in any real sense.

                    This is why your argument is misguided and facile, it is because to be a Christian requires the adoption of unwarranted assumptions writ large.

                    If you ask an atheist if if Jesus existed, you might get any number of ‘I don’t know’ type answers. Ask a Christian that, and the answer simply is ‘yes’, regardless of the evidence or lack thereof.

                    You’re right, the rules don’t change. If someone wants to accept unwarranted assumptions and presuppositions (which are necessary for adopting any religious dogma), then the onus is on them. Someone who adopts a religion, then complains when other’s point out the intellectual dishonesty of their positions, is an ignorant hypocrite. Don’t like it? Don’t accept baseless presuppositions.

                    Chasmosaurus isn’t going with an “I don’t know”, he’s trying to fill that “I don’t know” with his god. That’s not being intellectually honest, it’s a formal logical fallacy called the God of the Gaps Argument; “I don’t know, therefor god”. That is not being intellectually honest, it is trying to fill the gaps in your knowledge with your preferred conclusion; it is supremely flawed and ignorant, the very worst kind of reasoning. Not only that, but it has never been correct. For every question that has perplexed humanity, whenever we finally managed to understand it the answer has always been “not magic”. That is a 100% track record, throughout all of recorded history, of discovering natural explanations; not magical ones. The magical explanations have always been wrong.

                    You have the choice to be intellectually honest or not, but don’t complain about others when you fail to hold yourself to a higher standard.

            • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

              •Medial Science recently discovered that
              the blood clotting causing scabs peak in the 8th day after birth

              •~ The Bible speaks about circumcision on
              the 8th day ~

              • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

                •Job
                26:7 “ He… hangs the earth on nothing” – talks about the free orbit of earth in
                space.

              • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

                Science
                has discovered that stars emit radio waves, which are received on earth as a
                high pitch. God mentioned this in Job 38:7: “When the morning stars sang
                together…“

                • lindsay

                  The “morning stars” that the bible is referring to there are ANGELS! good god, you people really DO just make shit up as you go along, don’t you? either that, or you honestly don’t have a fucking clue about your own scientifically inaccurate book of fairy tales. I think it’s a little of both.

              • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

                •Medial Science recently discovered that
                the blood clotting causing scabs peak in the 8th day after birth

                •~ The Bible speaks about circumcision on
                the 8th day ~

              • EvolutionKills

                Sources?

                Also, no proof that it’s nothing but a coincidence. Does it say anywhere in the Bible that the circumcision is to be done on the 8th day for the precise purpose of better blood clotting? No? I didn’t think so either…

                Lets also just forget that supposedly we’re made in the image of the perfect creator of the universe, but little boys just aren’t ‘perfect’ enough and need a little work around the genitalia after they’re born. But little girls are already good enough as is? Yeah, that makes plenty of sense…

            • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

              •~ Job 26:7 “ He… hangs the earth on nothing” – talks about the free orbit
              of earth in space.

              • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

                •The water cycle was not understood until 30 BC.

                •~ The bible explains the water cycle in perfect harmony in the
                following verses, go read them …

                •Eccl 1:6-7; 11:3; Job 26:8; Amos 9:6

              • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

                Matthew Murra discovered the ocean currents after reading of the ‘pathways of the sea” in Psalms 8.

                Maybe you should go read a science book lol

              • EvolutionKills

                Right, and the parts in Genesis about separating the water below from the waters above? I suppose he’s talking about the great oceans below the surface of the earth and the ones in outer space? Oh right, those don’t actually exist…

                If you study the cosmology of the ancient Hebrew, you’ll discover that it is nearly identical to the view of all of their pagan contemporaries. They thought the firmament was solid, that the flat earth rested upon 4 pillars, that water could come through the firmament from above, and the the sun and stars were small and relatively close (being inside the firmament). They basically thought we lived inside a giant snow globe. Cherry pick all you want, but the Bible is not a source of accurate cosmological data.

                • Holly

                  The waters of the “outerspace” are no longer in existence, true. BUT, that doesn’t mean they didn’t once exist. They were around before Noah’s flood. It was more of a water canopy that could be compared to the ozone layer in the way that it protected the earth from harmful rays and created an atmosphere that was warmer, more highly pressurized, and therefore more oxygen-rich.
                  The flood was when this water canopy fell down as rain and covered the earth as the oceans.

                  • EvolutionKills

                    Really?

                    Evidence or GTFO!

                    I have zero patience for creationist presuppositional bullshit.

          • Cameron Thomposn

            random genetic mutation my friend read about it take your time with it because i know that to people who believed someone or thing created us it will be dificult to understand but i assure you it makes perfect sense if any one bothered to take their time with it instead of just having blind faith in something.
            C

          • Alex

            Oh, yeah. See all this life, creativity, complex human body, grass, leaves, flowers, trees, ground, water, fire, stars, galaxy, earth, universe, animals, and on and on and on? WELL GUESS WHAT? IT’S JUST CHANCE RIGHT? DUUUUH! IT’S NOT, it’s seriously completely impossible for all these designs to just be complete chance, it just seems impossible! FOR ONCE, PLEASE READ THE BIBLE. I know you guys are just ignorant and won’t touch a Bible, but just think differently for a change. I don’t believe in Allah, I believe in the Trinity, but that doesn’t mean I drop the Koran and read the Bible. I actually have read the Koran before. It doesn’t hurt me.

        • Unindoctrin8ed

          “Christians are taught to love and have compassion on people.” in the parts of the Bible you are comfortable with. In parts you like to pretend aren’t there or invent absurd reasons to claim they’re out-of-context or are misinterpreted they’re taught to kill, torture, oppress or enslave fellow humans.

          Charitable Christians are generally charitable people and would have been so whether their religion existed or not, many others are just trying to buy their way into heaven. Sure some Christians are charitable because of their religious convictions but their good deeds are more than outweighed by the evil believers do in the name of their gods.

          “The majority of Christians” are intolerant discriminatory bigoted hypocrites.

          If you do not accept evolution as fact you either don’t know enough about it, don’t understand it or ignore it because it conflicts with your religious beliefs. Not because it is untrue or unsupported my mountains of evidence that is understood and accepted by 97% of the members of the national academy of the sciences.

          There is no evidence to support the notion of a higher being and until there is I make the rational choice to not believe it. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Religious faith is entirely illogical.

          • Holly

            Then they are not really truly Christians if that is the way they are acting. Way to categorize an entire religion based upon the actions of a few select people. They can claim to be Christian so that they can make arguments that seem valid and just, but really they are just tarnishing the reputation of true Christianity.

            Just because they claim to be Christian doesn’t mean that they are. I could claim to be chair. Does that make me a chair? I’d hope not. Same thing goes for claiming to be a Christian. You can’t be one just by saying that you are.

            If that is your outlook on all of Christianity, you have never seen a real, actual Christian.

          • Eric

            According to evidence, life began in Africa. Olduvai Gorge and Sterkfontaine contain some of the earliest human fossils. So if evolution is true, and we started in Africa, slowly moving out, and evolving as we did it (just like the Peppered Moths), then it looks as if whites are more evolved than blacks.

            The point of evolution is survival of the fittest. Homosexuals can’t reproduce, and hence then can’t survive for future generations. So if evolution is true, then homosexuals are also less evolved than heterosexuals.

            • Alex

              Actually black people are not evidence of not fully evolved people. They just have lots of melanin in their skin due to the sun.

  • ramiadot

    Simply SUPERB!

  • Pr.W

    What incredible ignorance of Christianity!

    • Namealreadytaken

      Where was he wrong?

      • Joshua Wensley

        Read my corrections to his argument.

        • EvolutionKills

          I have, and they’re terrible. I take you up on every single point, 25 for 25, and shown just how vapid and ignorant your position is. Good luck with that.

          • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

            You know what sinking feeling you get when someone is so wrong about something that you don’t even know where to begin to correct and you just leave it be ‘cos it’s just to much of a mess. He was wrong on each and everything … I literally laughed at the comment. Ignorance seeks ignorance. That was PURE lack of knowledge that makes anyone think like that. But please, carry on …

            • Essera

              Near death experiences and Quantum physics support transcendentalism and New Age movement worldviews anyway

              • EvolutionKills

                No, no they do not…

  • Rich C

    I love this list. However, I wish you would edit it to correct some misspellings and grammatical errors. That would make the list more presentable. :-)

  • Evolution is quiet funny

    Its so funny how little this guy even knows of the basic stories of the bible lmao and his spelling really lopsided… Anyways, I guess everyone is entitled to their own opinion, you have yours; we have ours. But for the sake of your “atheist” community… Give the spelling a little more effort, and actually READ the bible so you know what your basing your biases off.

    • Unindoctrin8ed

      Have you heard the expression ‘pot calling the kettle black’.
      I think you meant Evolution is quite funny, not quiet. e.g. You aren’t quite ready to debate Atheists so you should keep quiet.

  • Dave Bronstein

    Brilliant essay. Some of the worst bastards on earth have been Christians. dave_bronstein@yahoo.com

    • Jack

      Some of the worst people on earth have also been atheists. (i.e: Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Robespierre)

      • James

        And? They were bad people because of there political ideals, not that they were not convinced a God exists (and Hitler’s faith is still disputed but generally considered to be Christian considering the focus on Christianity in Mein Kampf and the Nazi Manifesto). But the pilots at 9/11, Adolf Hitler and other extremists do horrible things ENTIRELY because of religion,

        • Chasmosaurus

          Hitler thought he was Odin. How can you say he was Christian? Just because he wrote in Christian terms to attract an audience does not mean he was Christian.

          • EvolutionKills

            That does nothing but ignore the fact that, regardless of his personal beliefs, Hitler managed to get the German people to go along with his plans. A nation where the two most prominent religions were Christian sects (Lutherans and Catholics), fed for centuries upon anti-Semitic hatred by their churches. The problem wasn’t just that Hitler was a whack-job, it’s that the rest of his fucking country was crazy enough to follow him; and they were that crazy because of religion, not in spite of it.

            If Hitler managed to abuse Christianity so easily for his own ends, that’s still an indictment against Christianity. His followers were Christian, his soldiers were Christian, the Nazis running the concentration camps were Christian. Being Christian, believing in God and Jesus, didn’t stop those pious men from killing millions of innocents. No, indeed it can be argued that their religious beliefs are exactly what enabled them to do so. Religion is a terrible catalyst and enforcer of in-group-out-group thinking. It was so easy for them to label the Jews and Gypsies as ‘others’, and thus to distance themselves for their own horrible actions. That is one of the things that scare me the most about religion.

            Remember, that the 9-11 hijackers were most assuredly the most pious believers on those planes.

            • Zach

              Man i am going to pray for you and anyone else that is lost in this world enough to believe this. you dont just throw accusations like that around without any proof. We are all sinners, we are not perfect we can’t be perfect. its not about religion, its about sacrifice and commitment and love. The pope has been designated by man not godholy priest who is closer to god then any other. We all are in the same boat. We all fall short of the glory of God because of our sins. The story of the bible is not fiction it is a biography about why God had to do what he did. We were imperfect, we could only be perfect without God. He is the Alpha and the Omega. the bible is a painting of the world before us and how we got to where we are today. im never going to convince you of any of this. i am a man and i wont try to do a job that God can only do. all i can do is tell you who he is and that he loves you

              • EvolutionKills

                “Man i am going to pray for you and anyone else that is lost in this world enough to believe this.”

                And I’ll think for you. Not only that, I’d encourage you to think for yourself.

                “you dont just throw accusations like that around without any proof.”

                Must I cite every speech that Hitler publicly affirmed himself as a Christian? Do you really need to see the census numbers to believe that Germany was a vastly Christian majority nation? I can get them for you if you’d like, as they are readily accessible to anyone with Google and the will to use it.

                “We are all sinners, we are not perfect we can’t be perfect.”

                Now THAT is a statement that requires evidence. Please provide evidence for the existence of sin without quoting the Bible. Remember that the Bible is the claim, not the proof. So to prove a Biblical claim, you must look outside the Bible for corroborative evidence. What evidence, outside the Bible, do you have for the existence of ‘sin’?

                “The pope has been designated by man not godholy priest who is closer to god then any other.”

                Religion is a means of control, but it’s not limited to just the Catholic Church. The Bible is a tool used to repress and control people, because it teaches people to stop thinking and to accept authority and information uncritically; it creates willing mental slaves that are easily abused.

                “We all are in the same boat.”

                Nope, not everyone buys into your same religious delusion. Other people don’t buy into any religious delusion.

                “We all fall short of the glory of God because of our sins.”

                Provide proof and evidence for the existence of ‘sin’ and your ‘god’ outside of quoting scripture.

                “The story of the bible is not fiction it is a biography about why God had to do what he did.”

                Except for all of the things it claims that are demonstrably false. The world is not flat, supported on four pillars, and covered by a solid firmament; outer-space is not filled with water. Stars do not fall from the sky. Bird’s blood and rituals do not cure leprosy. Diseases and mental illness are not demonic possession. Need I go on?

                “We were imperfect, we could only be perfect without God.”

                This is nonsensical. But one has the question any being that claims to be perfect, then creates imperfect beings then holds his creations accountable for not being perfect, when the creator had the power to make them perfect but chose not to.

                “He is the Alpha and the Omega”

                More nonsense.

                ” the bible is a painting of the world before us and how we got to where we are today.”

                Not at all, the Bible is a snap shot of the religious and cultural beliefs of a fraction of the population of Mesopotamia 2000+ years ago. It tells us nothing about our modern age, as the book was quite clearly written by ignorant bronze/iron age men who knew of nothing outside of their own borders. There is no mention of science, genetics, electricity, space travel, the internet, global communication, or anything at all beyond the borders of their desert; no mention of China, Australia, or the Americas and the people therein.

                “im never going to convince you of any of this.”

                To convince me you need evidence, and you appear to have none. To believe something without evidence is not noble, it is simply gullibility.

                “i am a man and i wont try to do a job that God can only do.”

                Except he can’t do anything either because he doesn’t appear to exist, and if he does, appears to be content to never interact in the world. Your god is identical to a non-existent god, and thus I see no reason why your god should exist while all others are still imaginary.

                “all i can do is tell you who he is and that he loves you”

                And may you be touched by His noodly appendage!

                Did I convince you of the existence of the Fly Spaghetti monster? I certainly hope not, and now you should understand why I don’t believe in your ‘god’.

                • Holly

                  I see you like to make the argument that if God had the power to make us all perfect and to save us all from ever making the mistakes that would damn us to hell, why would he choose not to?

                  Human beings are imperfect because we were given the “gift” of free will. We can choose to follow God, or we can choose not to. We can choose between right and wrong.

                  So, why would God let us do that? Because he wanted the separate those who would TRULY FOLLOW HIM from those who would choose to ignore him.

                  With free will, people are given the chance to grow by making mistakes and recovering from them. Although there are people that make mistakes and don’t recover from them, which is a terrible loss, but that is still part of the punishment from the original sin.

                  And you ask, how can we verify the existence of “sin”? Look around you! Do you not have a conscience? When you hear of a murder, do you not get the feeling that it is wrong? That my friend, is sin. When you can feel that it is wrong. BUT, you may say that you don’t feel it’s wrong to commit small acts of what Christians would consider sin. You could say that it feels totally fine with you and there’s no harm done. THAT is because you haven’t been filled with the Holy Spirit. When you have been filled with the Holy Spirit – which can be done just by asking for it – you will slowly begin to feel it, and have a STRONGER sense of what is TRULY right and what is TRULY wrong.
                  I know the difference now between the conscience I had before having the Holy Spirit and after acquiring it. You become so much more sensitive to knowing what is sin and what isn’t than you were before.

                  But without ever having the Holy Spirit in your life, you couldn’t possibly be able to even fathom what that experience is like!!!
                  So please don’t even try to judge and put down something that you have not experienced for yourself.
                  You could, if you wanted to. It’s freely available. YES, FREE. It doesn’t cost any money. Anyone can obtain it.

                  And oh yes, there has been the argument of sacrificing and the idea that incest and whatnot was okayed by God. You may forget all of that was BEFORE Christ. When he came to the earth, his teachings were so controversial because it went against so many things that were in practice at the time. Why? Why did it have to be that way?
                  Well, in this day and age would you want to be sacrificing animals? He did it to give us the free gift of life because he sacrificed HIMSELF, which is greater than any sacrifice we could make.

                  • EvolutionKills

                    Freewill, as proposed by theists, is incompatible with their God’s omniscience.

                    Try again dumbass.

              • andy

                amen!!

              • Alex

                Preach it, brother!

            • Chelsea Brown

              Sounds like youve been watching too much of the jewish history channel.

              • EvolutionKills

                I’m sorry, are you going to try to argue that Christians were not the vast majority of the German population, the Wehrmacht, or the Nazi party? If you have objections, please be specific. You’re vague anti-Semitic insinuation is flaccid in the extreme, and speaks more of your own lack of education than anything else.

            • AlwaysLearning

              “If Hitler managed to abuse Christianity so easily for his own ends, that’s still an indictment against Christianity.”
              So because of the ease by which something can be abused, in this case Christianity, you’re saying then Christianity is to blame? If that’s true, then let’s carry that logic out. Another oft abused subject is children. Are they to be “indicted” because of the ease to which they are abused? Or was it possible that something else is at work in Hitler’s example? Now obviously as a believer in God and a follower of Christ, we’re just not going to agree on this point. But incase you’re able to put yourself in the position mentally of a follower of Christ, could it be Hitler’s evil intentions and not in fact Christ who is to blame? And surely you are familiar enough with religion or Christianity to understand the concept of “nominalism”. Has it ever occured to you that there could be large groups or even nations in existence that look at their perspective religion, in Germany’s case, Christianity as purely a cultural adornment and not a life spent in pursuit of knowing Christ? Here’s my only example of an authentic Christ follower during Hitler’s reign: Deitrich Bonhoffer. See how he handled Hitler’s Christianity.

              • EvolutionKills

                You know, you could have saved us both a lot of time by just typing ‘No True Scotsman Fallacy’ in all caps.

                Of course the Nazis weren’t the right Christians, they weren’t your Christians who followed your interpretation of the Bible and the teaching of Christ and therefore they’re not ‘True Christians (TM)’. Thank goodness we have you here to deliver unto us the correct interpretation of the scripture! Wait, where were you in 1933 Germany? Oh shit, you mean you didn’t correct their flawed interpretation and you allowed them to run amok as false Christians!? Damn nigga’, whose fault is that?

                *yawn…*

                Try harder next time, or get yourself a real education buckwheat.

                • andy

                  disrespect is a mask for not having substance (and insecurity). not cool, bro. instead of insulting everyone that holds a different opinion, you might try taking on the intellectual and academic challenges these people are putting out in an intellectual and academic manner

                  • EvolutionKills

                    I’ve tried, and they (and by extension you) have nothing to offer here. If you mean to argue that the Nazis weren’t ‘true christians’ then you too can go fuck yourself, because you too have nothing to add. Read my other posts. Christianity, god, and Jesus all failed to prevent the Holocaust. The Nazis were overwhelming Christian, the German people were overwhelming Christian; neither fact helped to stop the Holocaust, they were in fact catalysts for it.

                    So do you have something to add besides whineing about how butthurt your feelings are? Or do you have nothing because you have no substance and so have nothing left to fall back on but attack my style?

                    Substance indeed…

            • Alex

              If Hitler’s supposedly a Christian, why would he kill his own Christians like Jews?

              • EvolutionKills

                Oh, please do try harder…

                From RationalWiki…

                http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Positive_Christianity

                ———————————————————

                Positive Christianity is a brand of Christianity that was overtly fashioned after the beliefs of National Socialism. Nazi Germany, though it was politically secular, sought to appeal to the largely religious populace by means of constructing churches, establishing concordats, and having Hitler’s birthday celebrated in every church. Steigmann-Gall argues that Hitler and many leading Nazis embraced Positive Christianity as a way to bridge the confessional divide in Germany.

                It was primarily the brainchild of Adolf Hitler whose relationship to Christianity was complex. He was raised Catholic and even thought of becoming a priest at one point[citation needed], but later came to despise the Roman Catholic Church. The ideology and rituals of the party were quasi-religious and in some senses a competitor with Christianity. Nevertheless, practical politics made it desirable for him to make his “peace” with Christianity and specifically with the Catholic Church. The primary appeal of the Nazis was toconservative/populist middle and lower middle class Germans and Austrians, who also tended to be observant Christians; for example, over half of the Waffen-SS were Catholics. It should be noted that the only Nazi to be formally excommunicated from the church was Joseph Goebbels — on the basis that he had married a Protestant, Magda Goebbels.

                Accounts of what Hitler and the Nazis believed about Christianity are contradictory and confusing. That may be because the Nazis were confused about Christianity and contradicted themselves/each other. It may also be due to the fact that misleading comments about Nazi beliefs are often made deliberately to associate or dissociate specific groups or beliefs with Nazism (see Godwin’s Law or quote mining).

                ———————————————————

                While Hitler’s personal belief may be disputed, you cannot deny that the vast majority that followed him into insanity were Christians; and the vast majority that carried out the acts of violence, hatred, and genocide with their own hands were Christian as well. If you can rationalize the extermination and mass slaughter of other human beings for reason X, is it really so hard for reason Y? Their propaganda focused on the demonization of the ‘other’, whether it be people of different nationalities, races, or creeds. Also European christians had been slaughtering each other for well over a millennia long before the advent of the Nazi party. Maybe the better question would be how anybody can so thoroughly dehumanize another group of people to the point that their extermination was seen as a moral imperative? Because I can think of plenty of religions reasons and examples.

                • Alex

                  But, tell me: “What is the definition of Christianity?”

                  • EvolutionKills

                    Considering that there are over 3,500 Christian denominations, I imagine that the definition varies quite a bit.

                    Hitler was raised a Catholic.

                    “I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so.”
                    - Adolf Hitler, to General Gerhard Engel, 1941

                    The vast majority of the German people, and subsequently the members of the Wehrmacht, Waffen-SS, Nazi Party, and those operating the concentration camps; were self professed Christians (predominantly Catholics and Lutherans).

                    Hitler made many references to a god and creator, invoked Jesus specifically, and cloaked his hate speech in religious language and justification.

                    “My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God’s truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter. In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. …Today, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed his blood upon the Cross…”
                    - Adolf Hitler, speech on April 12, 1922

                    Even if Hitler was a secret, closet atheist; the actions of those who followed him are still an indictment against Christianity. I fail to see what quibbling over the definition of ‘Christian’ is going to get you, other than the use of the Special Pleading logical fallacy.

      • Galen Olson

        I know! That’s why Hitler hosted the pope so many times at his summer retreat in Bavaria…because he was an atheist! Really? Read VERY carefully in his writings where Hitler explains that he is doing ‘God’s’ work. If your trying to make a point, just remember that you have about 50 christians to 1 atheist in the ‘Historical monsters’ catagory!

      • Lottie

        Those are the people who use religion as an excuse to justify anything and everything they do. Nothing in Christianity teaches to steal, kill, cheat, take advantage of others ect. Quite the opposite actually. Do you really think a religion that teaches to love everyone (even your enemies) is a bad thing?

        • Psyllia

          “However many holy words you read, however many you speak, what good will they do you if you do not act on upon them?” – Buddha. “The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips
          and walk out the door, and deny Him by their lifestyle.” – Brennan Manning. Christians are no more likely to be good or evil than people of other religions. Most of the Muslims I know are wonderful, kind, giving human beings. Because they ignore parts of Islam. “Hate the sin, love the sinner” is just a saccharine infused saying that has no logical merit. It is like saying “Hate Nazism, love Hitler”. You can say it but if you mean it there is actually something wrong there…

          • andy

            some of those first few points are good, but can you blame Christianity for the flaws of its followers? violence, intolerance, hypocrisy, hatred, discrimination and countless other things have been committed in the name of Christianity but it was the flawed followers who brought those problems to the table, not the faith.

        • classycatlady1989

          Riddle me this…in the same book of the bible that says “Do not have sex before marriage” it also states numerous things as “Don’t wear polyester clothing”. Why is it that Christians today cherry pick their beliefs due to what suits their lifestyle?

          • Alex

            What book is that in? Leviticus?

      • Lottie

        Oops meant for that to be a reply to Dave Bronstein.

      • Psyllia

        In spite of what people argue, they did not kill in the name of atheism. They are dictators and they made themselves Gods and kicked out old Gods. Atheists do not make themselves Gods but dictators do. Kim Jong Un requires Koreans to bow at images of him. Dictators make themselves infallible, they make their followers worship them and glorify them—sounds like a religious impulse, not an atheistic one.

      • Ryan Tiffany

        The important part isn’t that horrible Christians were Christians, or that the people you listed (apart from Hitler, get it right) were atheist. What’s important is that they got people to go along with their evil because of blind ideology. The difference between atheism and Christianity is that atheism helps you question everything, including the bullshit of other atheists; Christianity convinces you to do what you’re told and to just have faith.

        • Thaj

          I fully agree!

      • JEKinTX

        Hitler was a Catholic, accepted into Mormonism, was a believer in Christianity albeit with heavy Anti-Semitic rhetoric.

      • Ray Heroux

        Hitler was a Christian, not an Athiest. In fact, the Third Reich deemed that they were God’s chosen. Hence the reason for his slaughtering of the Jews.

        • Alex

          If people don’t love others and God, they aren’t Christians. Hitler didn’t love the Jews, so He’s not a Christian.

          • lindsday

            Why do Christians STILL insist that Hitler was an atheist or “not Christian”? he was a fucking CHRISTIAN who thought he was doing “god’s work”. and the catholic church condoned what he did! google it. there are thousands and thousands of sites with information about this! read a book. watch a history documentary on the holocaust. there is far too much information out there for you to be this fucking ignorant!

            • Alex

              Matthew 5:43-48 (this defines Christianity): 43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[i] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47 And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48 Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

  • mr mike

    people nit picking about spelling should worry less about grammatical and spelling errors; and actually listen to the message he is sending. you can’t argue his points, so you argue that he needs to spell better and improve his grammar.

    pr w. if this is such ignorance; please enlighten us. where is your answer. and don’t say ‘you have to have faith’.

    i also have a few other topics and i know that i don’t know the bible that well. but guess what; answer my questions and i might study it further. lucifer. where did he come from? if we humans die and become angels – where did lucifer come from? God just created lucifer to keep him company and then got bored and decided to create humans too?

    • Chasmosaurus

      Christians do not believe that humans become angels when they die, but that angels are separate beings that God created along with our universe.

  • awholeheartedchristian

    you arrogant son of a ***** you have your mind so unbelievably clouded by media and scientist propaganda that you don’t even open your mind to the sheer probability of a god, god is good and powerful and righteous, and nothing of witch you just described. he has changed my life for eternity and i feel him all around me, he is alive and well and your words can not change that

    sincerely a whole-hearted christian.

    may god bless your soul

    • Nnamealreadytaken

      No… He just gave a perfectly sound argument against Christianity, were was he ignorant? Your just as closed minded as he is anyway, if you weren’t you would simply try to debate this argument, but instead you just insult him acuse him of bieng ignorant with no reading behind your accusation.

    • Ryan

      As a fellow Christian. I sincerely hope you do not act like this in real life. You have a horrible attitude that in no way shows evidence that Christ is in your life. Christians are called to be loving at all times, even in the midst of persecution or even to the point of martyrdom. Stephen the the first martyr mirrored Jesus Christ example on the cross by asking God to forgive the people that were killing him. And here you are name calling over someone arguing against your faith a little bit. The only thing you are doing is providing more evidence to the atheists’ arguments against Christians…. If Christ has truly changed your life, then live it out and let that be your example to world around you.

  • Tony

    #21 is not correct..the new Testament has over 25000 original written texts dated within the lifetime of actual eye witnesses. Get your facts right. There is enough bogus information on the Internet already. Bad science is forming a conclusion and then cherry picking information to support it. I did bother answering the others because its obvious you skimmed thru the Bible or simply repeated information u heard elsewhere.

    • An EnlightenedDruid

      Ok You make the claim. Now the burden is upon you to prove your claim. Show me the proof that these people witnessed the happening in which they wrote. Prove it.

      • http://www.facebook.com/mary.e.rumble Mary Elizabeth Rumble

        The proof is in the fact that Christianity managed to become so huge so quickly. Those people would have contradicted the claim of Jesus’ resurrection quickly if it had not been true. People living in the time of Jesus were not idiots. A person would not drop everything that they believed in for their whole life unless there was something HUGE to change that. Like Jesus coming back to life three days after being crucified and then ascending to Heaven.I can not take you back two thousand years to see it, but the evidence of its happening is all around us. People would not easily believe this claim that Jesus is God’s son, and evidence for it being a lie could easily have been found if it were in fact a lie. This would have prevented the spread of Christianity, and it would have died out with the 12 disciples. Who also died awful deaths (except for John) and got no compensation for their actions. All twelve of them believed in this so much that they gave everything. It is completely unlikely that anyone would do this unless they were convinced what they were doing was worth it. Jesus was worth it all to them. This is some evidence. Honestly though, there is so much more evidence to give.

        • http://www.facebook.com/people/Rod-Miller/1420820643 Rod Miller

          These are all claims from the bible. How do we know what’s in the bible is true? Why didn’t the Jews that saw Jesus become Christians? Where does the evidence that the 12 disciples existed come from? The bible as well? Point is that the bible can’t solely be relied upon as sufficient evidence. There are no eyewitness accounts. Paul was not alive at the time of the crucifixion and SAID there were 500 eyewitnesses. What’s wrong with this picture? Someone saying that there were eyewitnesses is not the same as there actually being eyewitnesses. But Paul was NOT there! The reason Christianity spread is because Constantine passed it into law. The bible was edited by a council. It is man’s word not god’s.

          • Chasmosaurus

            Umm…you say that Paul was not alive at the time of the crucifixion, yet he became a Christian (after being a hardened skeptic) within five years after the event. Also, several extrabiblical ancient historians give information about the movements, teachings, and deaths of Jesus’ followers, including James, Jesus’ brother, who became a Christian as a result of one of the post-resurrection appearances that Paul records.

            • EvolutionKills

              The ONLY extra biblical accounts for Jesus in the first century are two interpolations (read: forgeries or copyist additions) to the work of Flavious Josephus, a Jewish historian that personally believed that his patron was the Messiah. Both passages are vague, and don’t appear in any copies of Josephus’s works until the 4th century.

              Josephus also spent pages describing other lesser religious sects and cults, false messiahs, and political sex scandals. Jesus, the ‘real messiah’, gets just one paragraph in between two parts about the terrible oppression of the Jews. It’s very awkward, explains little, and sounds nothing like the rest of his works (it’s sort of like a commercial for a Hawaiian vacation in the middle of the movie ‘Schindler’s List’). Conclusion? Later Christian forgeries! Also, early church fathers such as Origin, have commentaries were they berate Josephus for NOT saying anything about Jesus! How very, very, strange if we actually did have any contemporary extra biblical accounts for Jesus of Nazareth…

              Also any accounts after the 1st century are unreliable, because the Gospels were in circulation by that time. So any sources that were quoting Christians, the Christians were just quoting the Gospels. And Jesus’ post resurrection appearance to Paul was… a vision. Paul had visions (read: hallucinations) of the celestial Jesus. He didn’t actually see a walking, talking, breathing, and living physical Jesus in the flesh.

              As well, all disciples that were baptized were considered ‘brothers of the Lord’. So it is unclear weather James is the ‘actual’ brother of Jesus, or just a baptized follower of Jesus.

              Then of course you have to remember that hearsay upon hearsay by non-eye witnesses is not good evidence for ANYTHING. It would never fly in a modern court, and the standards for modern science are even more stringent.

        • Galen Olson

          In other words what your saying is that your best evidence is……you have NO evidence! PROVE IT! and atheists will be off of your back forevermore!

          • Guest

            That’s real easy. A claim made without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. When there is no evidence, God does not win by default. Go take a basic logic course at your community college then come back and try again.

          • EvolutionKills

            If you claim that God exists, or that Jesus was his son, or that the Bible is accurate; then the burden of proof is upon the claim maker to support their claim.

            The skeptic is under no obligation to present counter arguments or evidence against the claim. If you lack evidence for your claim, then your claim fails. Simple as that, and the skeptic has no reason to adopt the claim maker’s position, However the claim maker, lacking justification for their claim, does have a reason to change their position.

            The existence of any god, let alone anything supernatural, has no evidence to support it. So if you claim that they exist, you have nothing to support your position, and skeptics have no reason to adopt your positions because it is nothing more than baseless assumptions and presupposition.

        • Matthew Stolz

          Argument from Popularity. It’s a logical fallacy. It’s like saying that since everyone jumped off the cliff it must be good.

          So I take it that if something was put in your bible that’s all the reason you need to believe that it’s true?

          1. “Those people would have contradicted the claim of Jesus’ resurrection quickly if it had not been true.”

          There were in fact many who did refute the story of Jesus not long after, and even the early church itself had many disagreements regarding the nature of Jesus and what doctrines would be the correct ones. Your current theological belief about Jesus as Christ was not only contested, but it wasn’t always the widely held belief during the first century following Jesus.

          2. “People living in the time of Jesus were not idiots. A person would not drop everything that they believed in for their whole life unless there
          was something HUGE to change that.”

          About 90% of the population during the first century C.E. was illterate, meaning they could not read or write. This does not mean they were stupid, but they were almost certainly not critical thinkers, at least not by today’s standards.

          Do you remember the Heaven’s Gate cult? What about David Koresh? Jim Jones perhaps? Maybe someone more recent like Harold Camping? People will and do drop everything they believe in to follow something “HUGE”.

          3. “Like Jesus coming back to life three days after being crucified and then ascending to Heaven.I can not take you back two thousand years to see
          it, but the evidence of its happening is all around us.”

          Okay. What is the evidence? Don’t just throw that word around as it saying there’s evidence actually means there’s really evidence. There’s no evidence for it any more than evidence that George Washington chopped down the cherry tree. In fact, there’s more evidence to suggest that Jesus is a work of legend and influenced by other god-man myths that predated Christianity, Osiris, Dionysus, and Mithra are just a few to name. Perhaps not identical, but they share commonalities. Before Jesus, Dionysus turned water into wine.

          4. “People would not easily believe this claim that Jesus is God’s son, and evidence for it being a lie could easily have been found if it were in
          fact a lie. This would have prevented the spread of Christianity, and it would have died out with the 12 disciples.”

          People easily believe things all the time without being presented any evidence. People will persist believing in things when they have in fact been presented with the evidence that refutes their belief. You may be underestimating the power of belief can have over the mind. You don’t need evidence to make an idea popular. Tell me, would lack of evidence have prevented the spread of Islam, a religion that is almost a big as Christianity? What about Mormonism? Millions of people follow Mormonism and Joseph Smith has been exposed to have been a fraud, yet these people remain adamant in their faith.

          The 12 disciples did very little to advance Christianity outside of the Jewish people. You have Paul to thank for the Christianity you have today. I like to call it Paulianity, because very little New Testament doctrine actually comes from Jesus. Most of the NT was written by Paul, a man who never knew Jesus or met him while he was alive.

          5. “All twelve of them believed in this so much that they gave everything. It is completely unlikely that anyone would do this unless they were convinced what they were doing was worth it. Jesus was worth it all to them. This is some evidence. Honestly though, there is so much more
          evidence to give.”

          Eh, I wouldn’t say they gave everything. I think you are imagining that from some romantic view you have of the “Champions of faith”. But you’re right, it is unlikely that anyone would believe Jesus was some kind of messiah and follow him if they didn’t think it was worth it. However, you are wrong in suggesting that such passion and devotion on their part means that its evidence for the truthfulness of it all. We can even be certain that the disciples themselves existed. All of the four gospels were written anonymously, it was centuries later that the names Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John were attributed to them.

          My final thoughts. You say there is evidence, please give us an example. Simply saying there is evidence for what you believe does not make it so. I’d like to know what your definition of evidence is. Since the Bible cannot be evidence for itself (by saying so you would also have to admit that the Koran is evidence for itself) you must provide some kind of example outside the writings in the Bible that can factually verify the claims it makes.

    • Galen Olson

      AAAAAND the ball is in your court to PROVE this claim! I won’t say get your facts straight, I will say get some FACTS! Where ARE your supposed ‘eyewitnesses?’ If you can actually prove your claims the James Randi Foundation will give you $1 million! They have NEVER awarded the prize because the most informed religious people cannot provide any proof! I doubt that the prize will be won anytime soon.

  • person

    Lucifer is an angel that fell from heaven (on purpose) i don’t know where hell came from and this video did raise a few questions of my faith, but i still firmly believe in God. for the stoning and stuff, the best answer i can give is that something wrong must be punished, (not meaning to sound heartless there) and even today we have executions, just back then there was no way of doing it painlessly, so God called for the ways best known to man. and Lucifer does not create all evil in this world, we create alot of it and we brought it on ourselves by eating the fruit of the garden. as for the “dying” we did die. our spirits suffered a death of holiness. when we bit into that fruit, we killed what God had given us, inoccence and perfection.

    • EvolutionKills

      Lucifer, and the modern concept of Satan, is an evolved idea. Try studying the history of your own holy book, specifically the origins of the Old Testament. It’s easy to find information on how the mashit (the destroyer), then mal’ak hammashit (angel of destruction), then ha-satan (the accuser or adversary) to Satan with a capitol S. Regardless, a belief in a singular big-bad there just to oppose Yahweh (the current popular conception) is childish and uninformed.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j-gbOnWj6Mw

      As for capitol punishment, I object to it because it’s a permanent solution to a temporary problem. And even in ancient times, they had to have more humane ways to end a life than by stoning. It’s needlessly cruel and unjust. Best way? Please, use your imagination.

      So if you killed someone, by rights we should stone you to death. Should we also kill your kids while were at it? They’re your descendants, so don’t they also carry the burden of your crime? And how far should we follow through with that, to your grand-kids or great grand-kids? Where does the buck stop? I ask because you seem more than willing to accept blame for the supposed actions of Adam and Eve, and think that yourself (and all of humanity) should be held accountable for their actions. Not only that, you think God is just in holding us all accountable, and allowing the world to go to shit because of it.

      I hope, that when push comes to shove, you’ll disregard this as an entirely immoral and illogical concept. I also hope that you can follow the train of logic and realize that your god doesn’t get a special exception by fiat. If it’s good enough for God, then it should be good enough for you and everyone else. Thus, children should be held accountable for their parent’s crimes, sins, and debts. If you reject that this for the insanity that it is, on what basis can you continue to justify belief in original sin?

      I hope you’ll care enough to think about it, and maybe open your eyes.

    • Chelsea Brown

      Was this a literal apple?

    • ………

      trust me, you don’t have to stop believing in god to know most of the bible is bullshit. I believe in a higher power, and that our souls rise above when we die into a higher state of being. clearly more than matter must exist so I think we end up in a place only spirit can be. If you look at how religion is structured, its just many different stories mixed together, everyone changing and adding their own parts to how they see fit or what they see as right. Humans always want to make everything about us just because we developed a brain…. and god didn’t write the bible so how could it possibly be the word of god….? confusing is it not? people wrote the bible and other religious texts, and put in what they wanted

  • person

    though it really is a good argument. i appreciate that you looked into the bible.

  • Taegan

    Love this! Extremely well written! #AtheistSwag hahahaha :)

  • Joshua Wensley

    1. God wanted something else to share his wonder with us, and created us to love him, serve him, and enjoy the world that he created with us. Sure, deciding to arrange for something other than yourself to exist seems stupid, but if you were locked in an empty room with nothing else inside (and somehow didn’t need food, water, or oxygen) then you’d get pretty bored after a while.

    2. Yes, the creation of Lucifer seems stupid. HOWEVER, you can’t have good without evil, right without wrong, left without right. My atheist english teacher taught me that. For God’s goodness to be worth anything, there has to be a badness to compare it too. What is red, for example, if there are no other colors to compare it to?

    3. Hell wasn’t created intentionally. It is simply a place without God. God is perfect, just and holy, and cannot allow sinners into his presence, or else his goodness and justice would be compromised. Because of this, God partitioned reality, creating a “heaven” for himself, “earth” for us, and “hell” for sinners to go to instead of heaven.

    4. I’ve already mentioned this, but while God is loving, he is also just. If a judge spends too much time with convicts, they are in danger of becoming corrupt themselves, or at least tarnishing their own reputation. God is justice. Anything else is sin, and will corrupt God’s perfect nature.

    5. You hold an excellent point here. Beating ones children with a rod is cruel. In New Zealand, where I live, the “anit-smacking bill” has been passed, outlawing the physical punishment of children. While physical abuse is wrong, a smack can quickly teach a child what they did was wrong, and may help them in the future because of it. The buying an selling of slaves is also cruel, but we mustn’t forget that all humans are sinners and deserve everything that is coming to us. I may be wrong, but as far as I am concerned God never outlawed women teaching. Finally, outlawing worshiping other Gods is an excellent idea. Worshiping a physical object (such as an idol) or worshiping another “god” (e.g. Zeus) goes against one of humanity’s purposes, which is to worship and praise God.

    Before I continue onto your points about the garden of eden, the first chapters of Genesis are regarded as myths. It’s unlikely that God created a “garden of Eden” or “created woman from man’s rib”. Instead, these stories are likely used for illustrative purposes, instead of as factual events. If you are explaining how babies are made to a six-year old, you say “the birds and the bees”. The first two chapters of Genesis are similar.

    6. I’ll give you the appendix argument. I can’t think why God would invent such a thing, but I’m not God and he knows a lot more than me.

    7. God created the tree of knowledge (the tree you speak of) to test Adam and Eve. Once again, what is “being good” if there is no “being evil” to test it against? If there is no temptation to do evil, then what merit is there in being good? In addition to this, God did warn Adam and Eve of the dangers of the tree.

    8. I don’t know why God didn’t intervene when Lucifer was tempting Adam and Eve, which is Lucifer’s job after all. But once again, where’s the merit in being good if you haven’t been tempted to do evil? Wheres the good in “not stealing cookies from the cookie jar” if you didn’t know there even was a cookie jar?

    9. Human nature is to sin. Human nature is to resist those who rule over us. Humans don’t want to obey God, and as disobeying God is to sin, all humans sin. Despite this, it actually is possible to obey God all your life, and therefore be sinless. We know this because Jesus did just that. You can resist your human nature. If you see a hot woman across the street, you can (and hopefully do) resist the urge to cross immediately and start chatting her up.

    10. Humans who have sinned (disobeyed God) aren’t compatible with him because if they get too close to him they corrupt his perfect nature. You suggested that God made no effort to spare humans of hells torment; and you’re wrong – he did. He had a plan all along, and that plan was to send Jesus down to Earth. Finally, you said that God never made any attempt to make an alternative realm for souls to reside in that would spare them from heaven. Heaven is the realm with God, Hell is the realm without. You can’t have a realm that “sort of” has God. Any realm with God in it, sinners cannot enter, and any realm that lacks God is devoid of his blessings and therefore has only pain and suffering.

    11. God allowed humanity to populate the Earth knowing he would eventually have to send a great flood. He knew they would sin, but he gave them the chance to repent, to turn back on their evil ways even though he knew they wouldn’t. It wouldn’t be right to punish them for something they hadn’t done yet.

    12. God had mercy on Noah because he was a righteous man. Just because his decedents were going to sin doesn’t mean Noah should be punished for their actions as well.

    13. Yeah. You’re right there. It’s embarrassing to admit, but it had to happen. Same thing happened in the first few chapters of Genesis.

    14. You seem to imply that the sacrifice of animals is senseless. It was a ritual that was performed to symbolize the sinless animals taking the sin of the Israelites instead of the Israelites themselves. It actually means nothing on its own – the sacrifice of these animals can’t save someone from their sins – but instead it was performed as a prelude for Jesus, who is the one who ended up taking all their sins for them. You also say that the Israelites killed off their sinful comrades. I don’t believe this to be true, but if you can supply some evidence I may believe you.

    15. One common argument against Christianity that is similar to the one you used here is; “If God exists, why hasn’t he come down from the sky and told us yet? Why doesn’t he send a sign?”, to which the answer is; “he did. He sent us Jesus 2013 years ago.(give or take a few years) He rose from the dead, angels sung of God’s glory, Jesus turned water into wine, made blind to see, etc, etc. He claimed that he was God back then, and had miracles to prove it – and yet few people believed him, saying that his miracles were simply magic tricks. If humanity didn’t believe him back then, why would they believe him if he came to earth now?” There’s also reason for why God stopped his miracles – if too many miracles happen at once, they will lose their “shock factor” as people become used to them. The point of a miracle is to get someone’s attention, and if miracles become everyday happenings then people will begin to take them for granted (as the Israelites did).

    16. I don’t see what your argument is here, so I can’t rebut it. God had to give a hard copy of his laws to his people sometime, and thats what he’s doing now, just after the Israelites banded together and left Egypt. Four of the ten commandments centre around pleasing God, who did indeed create the world, so this isn’t a big ask. The Israelites (and all of humanity) were/was created to please God. Pleasing God is their purpose, and God is reminding them of this, as well as pointing out how often they fail to do so.

    17. So? This was yet another miracle, as a virgin became pregnant. Incidentally, this hasn’t ever happened before, and likely never will. Scientifically, a “pregnant virgin” is impossible. The very fact that Mary became pregnant also fulfills a prediction made by Isiah, between 800-600 years before Jesus’ birth (“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”). Incidentally, this also further verifies the New Testaments’ authenticity as it fulfills a prediction made 800-600 years before it was written (which, at the very least, shows that the author knew his stuff).

    18. Jesus was able to change the 10 commandments as they were only required before Jesus came. The sacrifice of animals, for example, was only needed before Jesus. When Jesus came, it’s only natural that he should tell the Jews (the Israelites had a name-change) that they didn’t need to sacrifice their livestock anymore. The sacrifice of Jesus had been planned ever since man first sinned, and was designed to remove the sin of the world and place it on Jesus instead, so that he may suffer for it instead of us. Jesus himself wanted to go along with this plan because he loved us so much.

    19. The sacrifice IS FREE! The sad fact is, however, most people (e.g. you) REJECT the forgiveness of sins that Jesus is offering you.

    20. “Advancements in science and technology” you say. You can’t scientifically prove an event. You can’t, for example, prove that you attended your friend mike’s birthday party. You have to use the legal-historical method, which involves using witness testimony, written documents, solid artifacts, and a variety of other things to prove that an event takes place. The scientific method can only prove repeatable events, for example, that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. The boiling point of water can be scientifically proven because it is repeatable. You can carry out an experiment in which you heat water until it boils, then check the water’s temperature (and sure enough it says 100 degrees Celsius). To prove that abraham lincoln lived, however, you must read documents written about him, view pictures of him, listen to eyewitness testimony about him (be that by listening to the eyewitness or reading documents the eyewitness has prepared), and the list goes on. The New Testament is a written account of Jesus’s life, arranged by some of the best historians known to man. Luke 1:1-3 says; “In as much as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word have handed down to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, HAVING INVESTIGATED EVERYTHING CAREFULLY FROM THE BEGINNING, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus.” Luke 3:1 – “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and when Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Phillip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene…” If you haven’t worked it out already from these two excepts of Luke’s Gospel, then let acheologist Sir William Ramsey spell it out for you: “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy…[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.” In conclusion, you state that Jesus’s life took place before science could record it, and this is stupid on God’s behalf. In actual fact, Jesus’s life took place when it could be recorded by some of the best historians of all time.

    21. The documents regarding Jesus weren’t offered anonymously. The apostles supported Jesus and were proud of it. They signed their letters and Gospels, which is how we know who wrote them. All of the 12 apostles, excluding one, died horrible deaths. Peter was crucified upside-down. Everyone knew who the apostles were, everyone knew who wrote the New Testament. It wasn’t written anonymously. You imply that the translator was biased, but in actual fact, the Christian Bible we have today changes very little from the original manuscripts, with most of those changes being spelling errors and minor translation errors, ruling out “the changing of the New Testament.”

    22. As I have already mentioned, the Bible has changed very little over the years. But let me provide some numbers to show you just how reliable the New Testament really is:

    Julius Caesar’s history of the Gallic wars was written sometime around 58 and 50 BC. The earliest copies of his manuscripts we have are 10 manuscripts dating 1,000 years after his death. As you can see, there’s a high chance of errors cropping up in these documents as they get passed down from generation to generation.

    In comparison, over 20,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament exist today. William Albright, one of the world’s foremost biblical archeologists, says that none of the books of the New Testament were written more than 80 years after Jesus’s death.

    The New Testament holds the title of having the most manuscript authority of all the historical documents. The Iliad is second place, with only 643 manuscript copies.

    23. ?

    24. As I said earlier, if God came down to earth now and said “I’m God” then nobody would believe him. Few believed back when Jesus came to earth, and few would believe if God came to earth now.

    25. God created the universe, and a way for us sinners to live with him for all eternity. It is who are the problem. God deserves all praise.

    Checkmate… There’s the errors in your arguments.

    • http://www.facebook.com/mary.e.rumble Mary Elizabeth Rumble

      Thank you for taking the time to do this!

      • EvolutionKills

        Yeah, because presupposition is a strong and valid form of argumentation.

        Wait, no it isn’t. It’s totally worthless, as is his entire 25 point attempted rebuttal. His entire rant is nothing more than assumptions, bad logic, and a complete lack of evidence.

        If you actually found his arguments compelling, I’d suggest taking some classes or studying basic logic and improving your reading comprehension. Then go back and actually read the entire Bible, just not the parts that get cherry picked on Sundays. Then come back a re-watch the video and reread the attempted rebuttal. I imagine that after educating yourself, they’ll leave very different impressions.

        • ugh

          hi evolution kills, just slidin in to make a side note hoping someone some day might read it, not replying to ur comment haha….
          TO ALL CHRISTIANS:

          WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS is NOT a DAMN ARGUMENT!! god didn’t even write the fuckin bible people did! and people added whatever the hell they wanted. If there is a higher power how could humans think they have the right to make up what he wants from us…?

    • http://www.facebook.com/travis.shirley.7 Travis Shirley

      This needs desperately to be addressed, and though I am certainly not the most capable, I seem to be the only one who has taken any time to do so.

      1. This is not a rebuttal. You did not contest the original statement, so this needs not be touched upon.

      2. You are accepting as fact that what your teacher considers to be a rule of grammar applies not only in language, but also applies consistently throughout the whole of the physical universe. That’s absurd.

      3. “Hell wasn’t created intentionally.” You have compromised your god’s omnipotence by suggesting an unintentional act on his behalf.

      4. If your god is corruptible, he is not infallible. You have again compromised one of the basic traits that makes your god a god.

      5. I will agree that Genesis is considered myth, and submit that you should probably extend this to include a considerably larger portion of your book.

      6. Your admission in the first half of this statement is admirable, and I respect you a bit for it.

      7. “God created the tree of knowledge (the tree you speak of) to test Adam and Eve.” And here you have compromised your god’s omniscience, for tests are only necessary in the absence of knowledge.

      What is left for you to call this “being” a god? By the claims you have made here, he is not omnipotent, infallible, nor is he omniscient. I’m going stop right here, as every argument made beyond this point seems to rely upon the basic assumptions you have made here, which we can clearly dismiss.

      On a side-note, I found your closing comment to be extremely arrogant, as you’d not even given any opportunity for your points to be reviewed before proclaiming yourself the “winner”.

      I realize this post is a bit old. However, people are still reading it, and I hope that this will promote positive discussion on the points that have been made.

      • http://www.facebook.com/briansholmes Brian Holmes

        I had to chime in for a second on your #7 – “for tests are only necessary in the absence of knowledge.” Think about that statement for a minute. That doesn’t make sense even in an intellectual stance.. For the sake of this specific topic though – the very point of the test would be to see where their hearts truly were.

        It’s clear from the bible.. despite what some of my fellow Christians continue to argue.. that at the moment of human creation we were given free will and ability to recognize what God offers and choose to accept it as best, or to see what we can gain on our own accord, choose that route, blindly disobey Him, and as the bible puts it – ‘become our own gods’.

        The bible is actually really consistent on the point from the old testament to the new testament if you real through the lines. As God’s creation, He loves us and He wants us to love Him back, honor Him (and only Him), and follow His WAY. His way is love, selflessness, etc. (and don’t bring up the old testament cruelty stuff I can dispute that at a later point) for now, just follow me on this..

        The tree of knowledge (and the punishment of death) WAS honored. Perhaps not INSTANT physical death, but we BEGAN spiritual death, and subsequently our bodies that would also now die of physical death. By choosing to disobey they became humans with flaws (for all we know appendixes, bad tubing, etc. didn’t exist the same way prior to that..it says we didn’t know shame or clothe ourselves. For all we know we might not have even killed/eaten animals or removed waste by-product. These “defects” could be built-in to ensure that we do die. Hell, car manufacturers build parts that only last so long on purpose..lol)

        I’m going against the Christian grain on this next point but a lot of Christians will preach “it’s all part of God’s plan”on everything. And as the creator and owner and controller of everything it sort of is, but that can also easily be taken out of context. As the video author illustrated, His plan succeeded in:

        1. creating flawed beings that will physically expire.
        2. the mental, physical, emotional, and (if you believe) spiritual yearning for knowledge, meaning, and understanding
        3. (for almost all of creation) no physical in-your-face, unarguable proof of His existence (well there’s the universe, etc. but He didn’t at least in a way that would authenticate Jesus/Bible teachings as written fact)
        4. Essentially making it literally impossible for anyone to believe, and even more so the more intelligent you are…

        UNLESS… you believe the following things:

        1. Goodness.

        2. Love.

        3. An unexplainable, you just know it in-the-pit-of-your-stomach feeling (dare I say spirit?) when you experience these 2 things and agree that it is better than their counterparts when you compare both in their purest forms.

        The REASON we can’t INTELLECTUALLY KNOW, understand, or grasp all of our conflicting thoughts and theories?? The reason why God isn’t here in our faces giving us all of the answers in a way that we can’t argue??

        ANSWER:

        Because then we wouldn’t listen to our gut. Which is how God ultimately knows which of us PREFER His Way (even if they’ve never even heard of him). You can love Him and His way without even knowing it.

        —/—

        Many atheists speak out publicly to bash Christianity. While some of them do it in a hateful, superiority complex, ignorant, lashing out way… and certainly so do many so-called Christians… BUT I think for the most part the reason atheists speak out is with intent to educate, enlighten, and HELP people because they ultimately care for and love others and want people to experience joy and happiness. And for that I love them. After all, we’re really all just sheep on this planet aimlessly wondering around searching for meaning and happiness. :)

        B

    • Kathina A Weikum

      Sad that you call and/or consider yourself a Christian and yet proclaim that the first few chapters of Genesis are a “myth.” Seriously??? It’s either all God’s Word or none of it is.

  • Joshua Wensley

    Well, look at that. My corrections were removed from this forum. Has nobody been able to refute them?

    1. God wanted something else to share his wonder with us, and created us to love him, serve him, and enjoy the world that he created with us. Sure, deciding to arrange for something other than yourself to exist seems stupid, but if you were locked in an empty room with nothing else inside (and somehow didn’t need food, water, or oxygen) then you’d get pretty bored after a while.

    2. Yes, the creation of Lucifer seems stupid. HOWEVER, you can’t have good without evil, right without wrong, left without right. My atheist english teacher taught me that. For God’s goodness to be worth anything, there has to be a badness to compare it too. What is red, for example, if there are no other colors to compare it to?

    3. Hell wasn’t created intentionally. It is simply a place without God. God is perfect, just and holy, and cannot allow sinners into his presence, or else his goodness and justice would be compromised. Because of this, God partitioned reality, creating a “heaven” for himself, “earth” for us, and “hell” for sinners to go to instead of heaven.

    4. I’ve already mentioned this, but while God is loving, he is also just. If a judge spends too much time with convicts, they are in danger of becoming corrupt themselves, or at least tarnishing their own reputation. God is justice. Anything else is sin, and will corrupt God’s perfect nature.

    5. You hold an excellent point here. Beating ones children with a rod is cruel. In New Zealand, where I live, the “anit-smacking bill” has been passed, outlawing the physical punishment of children. While physical abuse is wrong, a smack can quickly teach a child what they did was wrong, and may help them in the future because of it. The buying an selling of slaves is also cruel, but we mustn’t forget that all humans are sinners and deserve everything that is coming to us. I may be wrong, but as far as I am concerned God never outlawed women teaching. Finally, outlawing worshiping other Gods is an excellent idea. Worshiping a physical object (such as an idol) or worshiping another “god” (e.g. Zeus) goes against one of humanity’s purposes, which is to worship and praise God.

    Before I continue onto your points about the garden of eden, the first chapters of Genesis are regarded as myths. It’s unlikely that God created a “garden of Eden” or “created woman from man’s rib”. Instead, these stories are likely used for illustrative purposes, instead of as factual events. If you are explaining how babies are made to a six-year old, you say “the birds and the bees”. The first two chapters of Genesis are similar.

    6. I’ll give you the appendix argument. I can’t think why God would invent such a thing, but I’m not God and he knows a lot more than me.

    7. God created the tree of knowledge (the tree you speak of) to test Adam and Eve. Once again, what is “being good” if there is no “being evil” to test it against? If there is no temptation to do evil, then what merit is there in being good? In addition to this, God did warn Adam and Eve of the dangers of the tree.

    8. I don’t know why God didn’t intervene when Lucifer was tempting Adam and Eve, which is Lucifer’s job after all. But once again, where’s the merit in being good if you haven’t been tempted to do evil? Wheres the good in “not stealing cookies from the cookie jar” if you didn’t know there even was a cookie jar?

    9. Human nature is to sin. Human nature is to resist those who rule over us. Humans don’t want to obey God, and as disobeying God is to sin, all humans sin. Despite this, it actually is possible to obey God all your life, and therefore be sinless. We know this because Jesus did just that. You can resist your human nature. If you see a hot woman across the street, you can (and hopefully do) resist the urge to cross immediately and start chatting her up.

    10. Humans who have sinned (disobeyed God) aren’t compatible with him because if they get too close to him they corrupt his perfect nature. You suggested that God made no effort to spare humans of hells torment; and you’re wrong – he did. He had a plan all along, and that plan was to send Jesus down to Earth. Finally, you said that God never made any attempt to make an alternative realm for souls to reside in that would spare them from heaven. Heaven is the realm with God, Hell is the realm without. You can’t have a realm that “sort of” has God. Any realm with God in it, sinners cannot enter, and any realm that lacks God is devoid of his blessings and therefore has only pain and suffering.

    11. God allowed humanity to populate the Earth knowing he would eventually have to send a great flood. He knew they would sin, but he gave them the chance to repent, to turn back on their evil ways even though he knew they wouldn’t. It wouldn’t be right to punish them for something they hadn’t done yet.

    12. God had mercy on Noah because he was a righteous man. Just because his decedents were going to sin doesn’t mean Noah should be punished for their actions as well.

    13. Yeah. You’re right there. It’s embarrassing to admit, but it had to happen. Same thing happened in the first few chapters of Genesis.

    14. You seem to imply that the sacrifice of animals is senseless. It was a ritual that was performed to symbolize the sinless animals taking the sin of the Israelites instead of the Israelites themselves. It actually means nothing on its own – the sacrifice of these animals can’t save someone from their sins – but instead it was performed as a prelude for Jesus, who is the one who ended up taking all their sins for them. You also say that the Israelites killed off their sinful comrades. I don’t believe this to be true, but if you can supply some evidence I may believe you.

    15. One common argument against Christianity that is similar to the one you used here is; “If God exists, why hasn’t he come down from the sky and told us yet? Why doesn’t he send a sign?”, to which the answer is; “he did. He sent us Jesus 2013 years ago.(give or take a few years) He rose from the dead, angels sung of God’s glory, Jesus turned water into wine, made blind to see, etc, etc. He claimed that he was God back then, and had miracles to prove it – and yet few people believed him, saying that his miracles were simply magic tricks. If humanity didn’t believe him back then, why would they believe him if he came to earth now?” There’s also reason for why God stopped his miracles – if too many miracles happen at once, they will lose their “shock factor” as people become used to them. The point of a miracle is to get someone’s attention, and if miracles become everyday happenings then people will begin to take them for granted (as the Israelites did).

    16. I don’t see what your argument is here, so I can’t rebut it. God had to give a hard copy of his laws to his people sometime, and thats what he’s doing now, just after the Israelites banded together and left Egypt. Four of the ten commandments centre around pleasing God, who did indeed create the world, so this isn’t a big ask. The Israelites (and all of humanity) were/was created to please God. Pleasing God is their purpose, and God is reminding them of this, as well as pointing out how often they fail to do so.

    17. So? This was yet another miracle, as a virgin became pregnant. Incidentally, this hasn’t ever happened before, and likely never will. Scientifically, a “pregnant virgin” is impossible. The very fact that Mary became pregnant also fulfills a prediction made by Isiah, between 800-600 years before Jesus’ birth (“Therefore the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”). Incidentally, this also further verifies the New Testaments’ authenticity as it fulfills a prediction made 800-600 years before it was written (which, at the very least, shows that the author knew his stuff).

    18. Jesus was able to change the 10 commandments as they were only required before Jesus came. The sacrifice of animals, for example, was only needed before Jesus. When Jesus came, it’s only natural that he should tell the Jews (the Israelites had a name-change) that they didn’t need to sacrifice their livestock anymore. The sacrifice of Jesus had been planned ever since man first sinned, and was designed to remove the sin of the world and place it on Jesus instead, so that he may suffer for it instead of us. Jesus himself wanted to go along with this plan because he loved us so much.

    19. The sacrifice IS FREE! The sad fact is, however, most people (e.g. you) REJECT the forgiveness of sins that Jesus is offering you.

    20. “Advancements in science and technology” you say. You can’t scientifically prove an event. You can’t, for example, prove that you attended your friend mike’s birthday party. You have to use the legal-historical method, which involves using witness testimony, written documents, solid artifacts, and a variety of other things to prove that an event takes place. The scientific method can only prove repeatable events, for example, that water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. The boiling point of water can be scientifically proven because it is repeatable. You can carry out an experiment in which you heat water until it boils, then check the water’s temperature (and sure enough it says 100 degrees Celsius). To prove that abraham lincoln lived, however, you must read documents written about him, view pictures of him, listen to eyewitness testimony about him (be that by listening to the eyewitness or reading documents the eyewitness has prepared), and the list goes on. The New Testament is a written account of Jesus’s life, arranged by some of the best historians known to man. Luke 1:1-3 says; “In as much as many have undertaken to compile an account of the things accomplished among us, just as those who from the beginning were eyewitnesses and servants of the word have handed down to us, it seemed fitting for me as well, HAVING INVESTIGATED EVERYTHING CAREFULLY FROM THE BEGINNING, to write it out for you in consecutive order, most excellent Theophilus.” Luke 3:1 – “Now in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, when Pontius Pilate was governor of Judea, and when Herod was tetrarch of Galilee, and his brother Phillip was tetrarch of the region of Ituraea and Trachonitis, and Lysanias was tetrarch of Abilene…” If you haven’t worked it out already from these two excepts of Luke’s Gospel, then let acheologist Sir William Ramsey spell it out for you: “Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy…[he] should be placed along with the very greatest of historians.” In conclusion, you state that Jesus’s life took place before science could record it, and this is stupid on God’s behalf. In actual fact, Jesus’s life took place when it could be recorded by some of the best historians of all time.

    21. The documents regarding Jesus weren’t offered anonymously. The apostles supported Jesus and were proud of it. They signed their letters and Gospels, which is how we know who wrote them. All of the 12 apostles, excluding one, died horrible deaths. Peter was crucified upside-down. Everyone knew who the apostles were, everyone knew who wrote the New Testament. It wasn’t written anonymously. You imply that the translator was biased, but in actual fact, the Christian Bible we have today changes very little from the original manuscripts, with most of those changes being spelling errors and minor translation errors, ruling out “the changing of the New Testament.”

    22. As I have already mentioned, the Bible has changed very little over the years. But let me provide some numbers to show you just how reliable the New Testament really is:

    Julius Caesar’s history of the Gallic wars was written sometime around 58 and 50 BC. The earliest copies of his manuscripts we have are 10 manuscripts dating 1,000 years after his death. As you can see, there’s a high chance of errors cropping up in these documents as they get passed down from generation to generation.

    In comparison, over 20,000 manuscript copies of the New Testament exist today. William Albright, one of the world’s foremost biblical archeologists, says that none of the books of the New Testament were written more than 80 years after Jesus’s death.

    The New Testament holds the title of having the most manuscript authority of all the historical documents. The Iliad is second place, with only 643 manuscript copies.

    23. ?

    24. As I said earlier, if God came down to earth now and said “I’m God” then nobody would believe him. Few believed back when Jesus came to earth, and few would believe if God came to earth now.

    25. God created the universe, and a way for us sinners to live with him for all eternity. It is who are the problem. God deserves all praise.

    Checkmate… There’s the errors in your arguments.

    • Amy

      they weren’t removed actually maybe you should have scrolled down before posting this again.

    • EvolutionKills

      A rebuttal of a rebuttal…

      1. How do you know? Regardless, a perfect being (as typically used to define the theistic god) would have no deficiency. Thus, he could not be bored, because he would never lack for mental stimulation. To become bored would be to have a deficiency, and thus no longer perfect. Presupposition combined with bad logic and ignorance. FAIL.

      2. How do you know? How is evil required to have choice? If you believe in a Heaven, then you believe that there exists a place better than here. Does Heaven have no choice? Does it lack all freedom because there is no evil in heaven? We can still have hardship and meaningful choice without wars and genocide. Once again, presupposition combined with bad logic and ignorance. FAIL again.

      3. How do you know? We cannot prove the existence of ANY gods in our reality, let alone prove their presence or non-presence in other planes of reality that they themselves have no evidence for their own existence. And doesn’t the ‘lack of God’s presence’ that you claim to be in Hell, a violation of God’s omnipresence? And isn’t eternal torture for finite crimes the very definition of injustice? Once again, presupposition combined with bad logic and ignorance. FAIL again.

      (Just watch, this is becoming a trend)

      4. How do you know? Also, how can our sin corrupt God’s nature? That means we mere mortals have the power to corrupt God’s very nature (Justice) by proximity to our sin, thus God is no all-powerful or perfect. Once again, you seem to lack any imagination or rudimentary reasoning and logic. Presupposition combined with bad logic and ignorance. That’s 0 for 4 so far.

      5. How do you know? You claim that the first 2 chapter of Genesis are myth. How did you come to that conclusion, and what stops us from concluding the rest of the Bible as similarly mythic? If it’s all fables and myth, why not Jesus and your God? And if the first 2 chapters are myth, what basis do you have to claim we’er all terrible sinners without the original sin of Adam and Eve (regardless of the fact that it flies in the face of personal moral accountability, but I doubt you’d understand that)? Presupposition combined with bad logic and ignorance. That’s 0 for 5 so far…

      6. How do you know? Simple argument from ignorance. “I don’t know, therefore God”. Sad, pathetic, and flawed reasoning. 0 for 6 so far. Damn, this is not looking good for you.

      7. How do you know? Didn’t you just claim that the first 2 chapters of Genesis are myth, yet you still continue to use them in your arguments as if they actually existed. Pick one and stick with it, they can’t be ‘mythic’ only when it’s convenient for you to defend your faith! Also, in the story, God never explained ‘why’ they should not eat from the tree. ‘Because I said so’ is weak and infantile justification. Moral accountability extends only as far as your knowledge. So if they didn’t know ‘why’, then they are not morally accountable, because God failed in his duty to properly inform then as to why they shouldn’t eat from the tree. Also, the immediate punishment of death, wasn’t immediately carried out. So is God a liar too? Damn, 0 for 7 so far.

      8. How do you know? To quote Sam Harris, “Either God can do nothing to stop catastrophes like this, or he doesn’t care to, or he doesn’t exist. He’s either impotent, evil, or imaginary. Take your pick and choose wisely”. A loving parent wouldn’t use entrapment combined with eternal torture on their own children, so I would expect better from a perfect and loving god. 0 for 8 so far, and I don’t expect it to change anytime soon.

      9. How do you know? Walking across the street to talk to an attractive woman is sin? Really? That’s a literal take on the Bible, were Jesus does say that to have adulterous thoughts is to have committed adultery already. Great, good to know just how deluded you are. You live in a celestial North Korea, a reality where you can be convicted of thought crime; the very definition of totalitarianism. By this same logic however, just thinking about helping others is just as good as actually helping others! Next time a hurricane hits the coast of Florida, lets all just pray about it and see how many homes magically rebuild themselves, right? Thinking happy thoughts is just as good as helping, right? 0 for 9.

      10. How do you know? Want to know what would be easier for God than enacting an elaborate Rube Goldberg mechanism to save everyone from the Hell he himself created? Just forgiving everyone. Is God not powerful enough to just do this? Why the human sacrifice? What argument can you make for the morality of vicarious redemption, something many find to be immoral (this is the source of the modern derisiveness of scapegoating, and Christianity is scapegoating writ large). And once again, baseless claims on the natures of other realms of existence than have not been demonstrated to even exist. 0 for 10 so far.

      11. How do you know? The great flood, if taken as literal truth, goes to show just how short sighted and imperfect your God is. In the light of modern scholarship, it hows the ancient roots of the polytheistic pagan Hebrew among their polytheistic pagan contemporary neighbors; such as the ancient Egyptians, Canaaties, and Babylonians. The story is a updated take on the flood in the Story of Gilgamesh, which was most likely not even the original version of a ‘flood myth’. Oh, sorry, you probably didn’t even know the ancient founders of your religion were polytheistic pagans (if Abraham and Jacob existed, they were pagans). Whoops. Well, the more you know. 0 for 11 so far, hot damn.

      12. How do you know? And how was Noah righteous, but all of the children, babies, and the unborn children of pregnant woman not ‘righteous’? This also makes your God both a proponent, supporter, and agent of genocide and mass abortion. Also, doesn’t that contradict the passage in Romans 3:10, “as it is written ‘there is none righteous, not even one’ (NAS)”. Whoops, Bible contradiction. 0 for 12 so far.

      13. How do you know? And once again, referencing the first few chapters of Genesis to support your point AFTER you’ve already stated that they are mythical. Pick one point of view and stick with it. You seem to REALLY like a literal interpretation, except when it doesn’t support what you want it to say or mean, That is both hypocritical and intellectually dishonest. Way to break your 9th Commandment for the sake of Jesus. But it’s okay to lie, so long as you pray for forgiveness, right? You make me sick. 0 for 13, half way through and you’re still at 0%.

      14. How do you Know? Getting tired of that question yet? I know I’m tired of writing it, but it underlies everything you’ve written. Once again the problem is vicarious redemption, weather animals or human. It is a plainly immoral act, to think yourself absolved of the responsibilities of your own actions, by killing another creature. That you can’t or won’t see this for the atrocity that it is belies your religious brainwashing. Also, whenever an ancient Israelite violated the Law, and one which carried the penalty of death (as per much of Deuteronomy and Leviticious), who in the hell else was going to put him to death but the other Israelites? Are you really so inept that you cannot connect even those simple dots? 0 for 14, an amazing streak cognitive bias and abject ignorance.

      15. How do you know? I love how you seem to speak on behalf of God, as if he had explained his messed up and inefficient plan to you personally. The fact remains, that miracles (exceptions tot he laws of nature) seem only to happen in the most superstitious and ignorant times and places. Miracles only happen in places and times where they cannot be verified. Is this the work of a mysterious (and seeming uncaring) God? Or is it simple human psychology? That the more you know, the better educated you are, the less miracles seem to happen? Care to guess which is more probably and supported by evidence? If your God really cared, and if simple belief in him is the cornerstone of entrance into Heave, he has the power to make his presence known beyond all reasonable doubt. The problem is that his very existence is an easily doubtable, easily questioned, and easily argued against. He either doesn’t care, or he’s unable to act, or he doesn’t exist. If any of those three is true, why call him God? For fuck’s sake dude, 0 out of 15, and down the rabbit hole we continue…

      16. How do you know? If your God is powerful enough to create the universe, he’s powerful enough to make his will known implicitly. He could make belief in his existence and knowledge of his will and integral as hunger and rest, but he didn’t (or couldn’t, because he doesn’t exist). With eternity on the line, this is a supremely callous and capricious act. And the Ten Commandments as is (or at least the commonly accepted set, not the actual Ten Commandments which end with the ‘not boiling a kid [goat] in the milk of it’s mother) are a terribly short sighted and egotistical set of edicts. Notice there is nothing in there about not harming children, nothing about rape. Graven images is more important to God’s plan for the universe than preventing rape. You really buy that? Are you that callous to the suffering of your fellow human beings? Have you no heart? That’s 0 for 16, and I am left questioning your basic humanity (or lack thereof).

      17. How do you know? For starters, this is not at all proof for anything divine. Remember that the Bible is the claim, not the proof. It was also written after the Torah, so how hard would it be to create a story that fulfills a previously written prophesy? Not hard at all, in fact it would be incredibly easy. That passage can also be interpreted (from the Hebrew) that ‘a virgin will conceive’. There is nothing miraculous about a virgin conception in this sense, as a woman can become pregnant on the night she loses her virginity. Also notice how Jesus is never referred to as ‘Immanuel’ after the reference to that passage is made in the nativity story, after this it is entirely forgotten and nobody ever calls Jesus by that name. Even if all of this had happened, a virgin birth would be proof of a virgin birth; it would not prove that Jesus was divine or that anything else he claimed was true, the logic simply does not follow. Go to a community college Logic 101 class before you even try to argue that point. Also, did you notice that a God that condemns adultery, got a MARRIED woman pregnant? A woman who live in a culture that stoned to death people that committed adultery, and by the decree of this God no less. Do you not at all notice the incongruity of how very often God disobeys the very laws and commandments he demands be enforced by the penalty of death? 0 for 17.

      18. How do you know? And why the whole charade with animal sacrifice in the first place? If your God is all knowing and all powerful, why did he need to make changes to his laws? Why didn’t he get them right the first time, Isn’t your God perfect? If the sacrifice was needed, why not have Jesus exist before Adam and Eve and get it done first of all? The sad reality is that a child could think up of a more coherent and logical plan than the one your God supposedly implemented, that should tell you something about the intelligence and imagination of the Biblical authors (let alone their wrathful tyrant). Once again, vicarious redemption is immoral. As is the concept of being held accountable for things you have not done, as per original sin. It’s would be comical how monotheists pass ‘moral accountability’ around like trading stocks, or at least it would be funny if it wasn’t so immoral. You’re guilty for what Adam did, but no worries, Jesus can forgive you for what you haven’t done (but will be held accountable for, because God loves you). This is an immoral belief, and an insane one. 0 for 18.

      19. If it requires something in return, then it is not FREE. Good god, you can’t even figure that one out. Free redemption would be simple forgiveness, no belief required; and remember that this is well within the power of a being capable of creating the Universe. Those who cannot believe because God refuses to make his presence know in a convincing manner, are doomed for all eternity because we lack the ability to convince ourselves to believe the unbelievable. Remember too that you believe that God created us this way, knowing full well that we cannot believe, yet refuses to show himself, and is content to never intervene and instead let us burn forever. He knows all of this beforehand and yet does nothing. And you call this being loving and just? You have a terribly warped sense of love and justice, and I hope you never have any children, because I’d hate to see you show your ‘love’ to them; as it would most likely involve a can of kerosene and a box of matches. I mean, if it’s good enough for God, it’s good enough for you, right? 0-19, and still sinking.

      20. How do you know? And for fuck’s sake, the Bible is the claim and not the proof. You can’t use the Bible to prove the Bible you ignoramus, or else you open up the same fallacious reasoning to all religions. I don’t suppose you’d find it compelling when a Muslim uses the Koran to prove the Koran, do you? Didn’t think so, so you do NOT get a special exemption because you believe in Jesus. Luke can claim to be an awesome historian, that doesn’t make it so. The plain truth is that the Bible runs into problems any time it tires to interact with contemporary history, and exemplified in the infancy narratives. Look at the jumble of scripture that is created by trying to triangulate Jesus birth with the reign of Herod the Great, Cyrenius governing Syria, and Caesar taxing the world. None of those things could have happened together (and the taxing even is entirely made up), and we know that there is a 10 year gap between the death of Herod and the reign of Cyrenius. The timeline doesn’t line up with what we know, and have evidence for, outside the Bible. Try looking at what the modern scholarship and consensus is among Biblical scholars, such as Bart Ehrman and Richard Carrier. Stop being spoon fed from AnswersInGenesis.com or some other such propaganda machine. Do you want to know what would be better evidence than hearsay stack upon hearsay, translation stacked upon translation? Scientifically verifiable and repeatable evidence. Have Jesus turn water into wine under controlled laboratory conditions, and have multiple independent teams verify that he can in fact modify the molecular structure of water into the complex carbon chains found in fermented grape juice. Even then it would only prove that he can change water into wine, not that he’s the Son of God or any other doctrinal obligation. But it would be a good start. 0 for 20, and it’s doesn’t look to improve any time soon.

      21. How do you know? Once again, this shows just how little you ‘know’ about your own Bible and the history of your own faith. The Gospels were written anonymously, many decades after the supposed events, by non-eye witnesses. It is hearsay upon hearsay, even assuming that the events actually took place and it’s not all mythic allegory (of which a strong case can be made for as per Richard Carrier). And how can the modern translation be an accurate version? Of what Gospels or manuscripts? There are discrepant and often contradictory copies in Greek manuscripts for almost every single line in the Bible. Many manuscripts contained sections that no longer appear in our modern Bible, and many that do appear in our Bible do not appear in the oldest and best copies of those Greek manuscripts (the story in John about the woman taken in adultery is a later addition to that Gospel and not present in the early manuscripts). Your unalterable and infallible Bible is both fallacious and has been edited throughout it’s history to suite the personal and political gains of those in power. Wake the fuck up already, they are playing you for a fool and you are more than happy to be duped. 0 for 21, why am I not surprised?

      22. How do you know? Once again, just because we have a lot of copies, doesn’t mean they all say the same thing. Also your use of ‘manuscript’ is disingenuous. A manuscript can mean, and in the case of the Bible often does mean, a scrap of paper or papyrus so small that it only contains a single word and pieces of others. That is considered a ‘manuscript’ by biblical scholars. And that still belies the point that when compared to historical events around it that we can confirm.

      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Textual_variants_in_the_New_Testament

      Try studying that and then come back here and tell us with a straight face what you’ve already claimed. You’re baseless assertions collapse under the weight of evidence and scrutiny. 0 for 22, you’re really on a roll here.

      23. If God know everything and is as all loving as you claim, then he should be able to forgive those who carry honest doubt about his existence in a world filled with contradictory claims about multiple gods, none of which have any evidence for their existence. So given the extenuating circumstance of our lives here on earth, one would expect a little mercy. According to your beliefs none of this is to be found from this all knowing and loving deity, showing that he is neither all knowing or loving. Rather he is infinitely cruel, malevolent, and capricious. 0 for 23, how surprising.

      24. If God is all knowing, then he would know how to prove his existence in a way so to remove any doubt from anybody the world over. Just because you’re too stupid and unimaginative to figure out how to do this, doesn’t mean that your all-knowing God wouldn’t be able to. Funny how you are constantly putting limits on your limitless God, instead of following things to their logical conclusions. 0 for 24, almost a complete hat-trick. Will you be able to complete the set with a total wash? Lets find out!

      25. How do you know? How come a perfect creator of the universe created imperfect beings? Doesn’t our own imperfection show that God is not perfect, because if he was, he would be unable to make flawed creations? He has created a universe more conducive to creating black holes than life bearing worlds, in which the matter that makes up the entire visible universe only constitutes less than 1% of the entire universe? We exist as a think coat of paint on one world, in one solar system, in one obscure arm of one spiral galaxy out of billions upon billions of galaxies (each containing billions of other stars), and this is just within the observable universe. And you have the temerity to think that we’re all terrible, flawed, broke, sinful humans beings (reminding you again, you also believe he made us this way), yet you still think all of this was put in place just for you? Your paradoxically slavish and egotistical mindset shows a level of delusion about the natural of reality that is truly frightening. 0 for 25.

      Checkmate? Hardly, you’re so ignorant you don’t even know the rules. You might as well throw up your hands and yell ‘Go Fish!’ at a game of Texas Hold’em, because that’s just how infantile your arguments are to anyone that hasn’t been brainwashed into accepting Christianity as absolute truth.

      I hope one day you’ll stop accepting everything on faith, and actually start to question things, to have doubt. But I doubt that, because you probably equate doubt with sinfulness, and thus you’ll never free yourself from your own mental shackles. But many of us have. You know why? Because once you start to doubt and question reality, once you’re more concerned with finding out the truth instead of confirming your own biases, those shackles disappear. Because they were never there to begins with, you only thought they were.

      • http://twitter.com/RoseAWright Rose Wright

        You, Sir, are awesome.

        • EvolutionKills

          Thank you, I just try to do what I can. Your encouragement is much appreciated.

      • Lazarus

        Really, checkmate? Alright… How do you know? In the end it’s mere speculations on whether or either of you are right or wrong. In the end that is merely your view of a perfect God. How do know your definition of perfect matches with his? Define perfect, is it not you that is putting his descriptions on us? Hypocrite much?

        • EvolutionKills

          Evidence much?

          Without any evidence to back up any of his claims, they fail. Evidence is what we use to determine the truth and nature of perceptible reality, and he fails miserably at providing any for any of his assertions. Thus his assertions fail, and nobody need take any of them seriously. I don’t need to argue over the nature of a perfect being, because until there is evidence that such a being exists, it’s nothing more than a concept; and I’m not here to worship his ‘concept’.

    • lindsay

      Since you have appointed yourself the moral authority on all things god/ christianity/ the bible ect, I have some questions for you. First, after Noah’s flood (that no science known to man has found a shred of evidence for) How did 8 people repopulate an earth filled with thousands of different races, including French, Brazilian, African, Thai, Jamaican, Swedish, Norwegian, Puerto Rican, Chinese, Russian, Haitian, Swiss, German, Mexican, Korean, Swedish, Saudi Arabian, Italian, Greek, Spanish, Indian, Japanese, Venezuelan, Egyptian, Hawaiian, Carribean, Sri Lankan, Argentinean, Peruvian, Dutch, German, Vietnamese ect? how in the world did 8 people create all these different nationalities? also, there is a famous bible story that i’m sure you’ve heard, “The Tower of Babel”. in the story, men were building a tower that god is afraid will reach heaven. the story goes that god was afraid that man would succeed at any undertaking from that point on, so he sabotaged his creation deliberately…..out of FEAR! and Christians, please don’t try to make it something else. the damn story is clear about god being intimidated and scared of his own creation. do you belive this? and if so, where do you think god was when Neil Armstrong walked on the moon? why don’t you think he interfered in that as well? and lastly, what would a god that created the universe and everything in it, have to fear from puny ass human beings?

  • Jimson

    Religious belief is an invisible security blanket for insecure individuals.
    Closeted minds will continue to allow brainwashing and indoctrination by religious leaders that there is a ‘god’, and there was a ‘jesus’, in order that the people with closed minds allow themselves to be controlled so that the various Corporations (churches) remain profitable as the tax-free money continues to roll in.

    • Thaj

      Exactly. The Catholic church claims that their laws are “god’s laws” but in reality the word “god” is just a scapegoat to give them power. This is something Catholics or any christian should think about, If god does not exist then who’s laws are you following? The Catholic Church’s laws. If you take “god” out of the picture then all thats left is the pope who is currently the Authoritarian Ruler of Vatican city.

  • An EnlightenedDruid

    I would like to put a small addition to this post and just give weight to a few thoughts.

    First I would like to state for the record that I do believe in a high power. I believe that this high power placed the elements in motion for the universe to evolve in the way it did, but in no way interfered afterwards.

    That being said, I do not believe in the Biblical God. I do not believe in a being that claims to ‘love’ all of his children, yet allows:
    a)beautiful, innocent children to die of horrible complications, accidents, and diseases while:
    b)allowing murderers, drunk drivers, and rapists to exist without disease, injury or overall complication and
    c) allows the lazy to prosper while the hardest working people are not rewarded.

    I do not believe in a being that claims omnipotence, omniscience, and omnipresence, yet uses none of it to deter any of the above.

    I am sick of hearing when something goes right, it was “the will of the Lord” yet when something goes wrong, “Satan had his finger in the pot”.

    I am sick of everyone praising “the almighty” instead of taking responsibility for their great accomplishments. I swear I want to punch every person thanking Jesus that they got a job, graduated, or were able to make it through some crisis. I am tired of hearing everyone blame God for their shortcomings as well. “Oh it was the will of the Lord that we were unable to afford presents for Christmas this year. He wishes to show us humility.” Bullshit!! It was your lazy, non-educated, fast-food working, non-budget making, dumb-ass that caused it.. God had nothing to do with it.

    This loving Creator does not exist. If he did, he would have nothing to fear from showing himself to us in a more real and tangible manner. If he created us, then he also knows that we are logical creatures that need evidence and proof of existence to believe.

    Thats all for now unless one of you Christians want to challenge a belief that has been around for about 20 times longer than your religion and has more evidence of the existence of higher beings than your 0%.

  • Scotty

    Really? but you find the fact that the universe magically exploding causing everything. Then an incredibly miniscule chance and mathmatical improbabilty one cell magically changed and changed into animals. others magically reproduced to make plants. Then we begin the magical and mathmatically improbable jumpr from single cell. to fish to land fish to ape to ape thing to man. Somehow though these magically life changing and producing cells stop doing just that. The stop evelving and creating new things as the cells decided what? that it was good? We also have the fact that the magical event of evelotution ( a theory still, only because there are large gaps and missing links so science cannot truthfully call it fact) during this evolution only select apes got to transform into men even though they all came from the same magic one cell!

    Atheists views on the development of the universe is just as much an example of blind faith as any religion. However many Atheist fail to acknowledge the fact that the bible states scientific claims well before science ever proved it. Such as Air has weight (Job 28:25),Light moves (Job 38:19,20),Ocean floor contains deep valleys and mountains (2 Samuel 22:16; Jonah 2:6)

    these are just some of the science that was discussed in the bible but during those times the “science” believed otherwise. however today we know these statements to be true. But “science refuted these claims back the.These concepts were much deeper than the intelligence of that time.

    Your beloved science once stated that Pluto was in Fact no doubt a planet as we all know now it is only still labeled a planet due to everyone being used to it as such however we have found objects larger than pluto around the area which would make pluto possibly not a planet at all.

    Archeolgists claimed that th Hitites described in the bible were biblical myth. until it was discover in early 1900′s.

    Dispute all you want the truth is the bible was a more complete text of science before your precious science was claimed as fact.

    Atheist are not seekers of the truth the truth is out there period. They are merely trying to convince others that a God, that to this day no religion,atheist,science, or man could stop even with all there so called intelligence, does not exist.

    I do not have to argue whether my God exists or not he has already won the arguement for me. Most religions that are based on unique stories and multiple Gods have been passed off as mythology. Yet the top three religions of the world still worship the one true God.

    One of the bigest named atheist Richard Dawkins when confronted on the improbable of naturalism and evolition began to state that the earth and inhabitants were created by aliens. Now thats much more logical than a divine deity.

    • EvolutionKills

      You’r understanding of science and evolution is so flawed, I can only assume you were home schooled. Please take the time to read about science from scientists, because the fallacious tripe you’ve just regurgitated here (presumably from your pastor or fellow believes) is so wrong, I’m at a loss as to where to even start.

      I’d strongly suggest going back to elementary school. That is how flawed your preconceptions are. Kids in 5th grade have a better grasp on these concepts than you do…

  • Pete

    Gods Perfect Plan (correct version)
    God is loving and just, sin cannot go unpunished because God hates sin. This is why Jesus had to die for us, so when God looks at us on judgement day, he does not see our sin but Jesus’s perfect purity and we may spend eternity with him.

    • EvolutionKills

      The perfect creator of the universe, creates imperfect beings. He does nothing to stop their fall from ‘grace’. His plan to fix this involves an elaborate Rube Goldberg mechanism enacted thousands of years later that requires the virgin birth, life, and tortured death of his Son; so that he can use His blood to create a loophole in the rules He created.

      Because he loves us?

      Was simply forgiving us, and not hold us accountable for the actions of others long since dead, not withing his power?

      Are you fucking retarded?

    • Chelsea Brown

      Bit childish dont you think?

      • EvolutionKills

        No, the childish bit is actually buying into the premise in the first place.

      • Holly

        The faith of a Christian is supposed to be child-like. So yes, it could be considered a “bit childish”.

  • SeekingTheTruth

    I have a few things I would like to ask. Assuming there is no God or Intelligent Designer at all for that matter, then what is the explanation of the origin of life? Given that evolution has already been proven, even by atheist scientists, to be just what it is, a theory, then what is the explanation of the origin of life? And where is your evidence, the factual, tangible stuff you can lay before me? If there is no real proof given, then God cannot be disproven. Whether or not one chooses to believe is not the issue here. If this is an argument against Christianity, then what is the proof that it is all false? I am not asking about your skeptical opinions or biased observations. What is the hard evidence for ‘knowing’ there is no God? Surely the arguments of an atheist are just as bigoted as a Christians, if bigoted is the term you wish to use.

    • S.S.

      First off, evolution doesn’t deal with the origin of life; that’s abiogenesis. Evolution describes the diversity of life that we see here on Earth. Secondly, you’re using the word ‘theory’ wrong, at least in the scientific sense. An idea a scientist has doesn’t become a theory because he and some other scientists think it’s a good idea. He would have a hypothesis, not a theory. In order for a hypothesis to become a theory it has to withstand all of the scientific scrutiny that scientists through at it. It has to be able to explain observations that have been taken, it has to have predictability, and most importantly it has to be repeatable. If one little piece of evidence is found that the theory can’t can’t explain (within it’s respective field, of course), then that theory would be thrown out the window. Non-scientific thinkers through around the word theory too lightly. You claim that evolution is just a ‘theory’. Have you heard of gravity? You know that it’s just a theory, right? How about atoms? Or bacteria? They are all just ‘theories’; the theory of gravity, atomic theory, and germ theory, respectively.

      On your question about the proof that Christianity is false, I have to ask; have you taken a logic class before? The reason I ask is because you cannot prove a negative logically. For instance, prove to me that unicorns don’t exist. You can’t. Now, you may say that they have never been found, dead or alive, or that there isn’t any good, solid, materialistic evidence for their existence, but that doesn’t necessarily mean that they don’t exist. This can also be said for giant squids. Until recently, they were thought to be just myths but now we have good evidence that shows that they are, in fact, real.

      “What is the hard evidence for ‘knowing’ there is no God?”
      There isn’t. Atheists don’t assert that they know that a god doesn’t exist, and if any do, then you would be correct. While most will probably say that it is highly unlikely that a god exists, no one can say for certain that a god doesn’t exist. Atheism is the lack-of-belief in a god or any supernatural being.

      Lastly, I would like to point out that you make the claim that God exists, and since you make that claim, the burden of proof is on you. You cannot escape that.

      • http://wa3l.com Wael Al-Sallami

        Loved it, just loved it!

      • Chasmosaurus

        All of the other “theories” you mention have, in fact, been tested, while the hypothesis that all changes in life are the result of natural selection and mutation is fundamentally untestable. I’m not saying that evolution as an idea is necessarily false (that would be very hard to do with current evidence, which definitely indicates a role for natural selection). I’m just saying that atheists need faith too.

        • S.S.

          Evolution by natural selection is tricky to test due to the time-scales involved. I have heard about scientists showing natural selection and random mutations working in labs with E. Coli by changing the environment the E. Coli are in over time and watching them adapt and change. Unfortunately, I can’t exactly remember where I heard this so I don’t have a source to provide. However, Wikipedia has a page on Experimental Evolution which gives some other examples of experiments done and ongoing that test natural selection.

          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Experimental_evolution

          When you say “atheists need faith too”, what are you referring to that we need faith for? Faith in evolution, faith in our ‘belief’ (if you can call it that), or faith in something else? Faith by definition means “firm belief in something for which there is no proof” (Merriam-Webster.com). I don’t have faith in evolution because it has proof, and plenty of it. I don’t have faith in my religious views because there is proof in the logic I (and many others) use to determine if I will believe in something. There is also the proof of the harm that religion has done to humanity and continues to do, willingly or not. For me, there is plenty of evidence to support my religious views. I don’t have faith in anything that would be considered life changing/altering. I do my best to try and draw my views and opinions with ones that have good, verifiable, and logically sound evidence to support it.

        • Matthew Stolz

          You don’t have to be an atheist to accept evolutionary theory, many Christians do also. Are they taking it on faith as well? Atheism and evolution are two mutually exclusive things. I don’t know why people think evolution and atheism go hand in hand. And you are wrong, they are not “theories”, they are theories. When you have reasonable justification for thinking what you do, it’s not faith that has you believing it. Knowing is believing, but believing is not always knowing. Natural selection is evolution and has been fundamentally tested, no faith is required.

        • confusedscientist

          to me evolution is obvious. if you deny it, its like saying oh yup, all these trillions of different species of life just sprouted up differently all over the world. for example we used to be covered with much more hair. why aren’t we now? because we figured out how to make clothing and over thousands of years our bodies adapted to not needing that hair. or why the fuck can a cactus live in a desert when regular plants cannot? oh right because it adapted to its environment and figured out it needed to save more water.

      • classycatlady1989

        I LOVE IT!!!!!!!! Thank you S.S. for pointing out everything that is so ignorant about Christianity!
        I love you!

        • JH

          How? SS just nit picked wording and pointed fingers. Also, if you had all the facts and proof, then there would be no faith.

          • AW123

            Then please, what are the facts? Enlighten us with your holy wisdom.

      • Zach

        Then you believe that creation was by chance, the big boom theory created life. That is your theory or I should say one of many theories but by your definition of a theory it must be duplicable. But as far as I know mankind has not duplicated life through the Big Bang theory and furthermore had evolution take place so that is invalid to me

        • EvolutionKills

          You are more ignorant than the ground you walk on.

          The Big Bang theory is cosmology, and deals exclusively with explaining the expansion we observe in the universe. It has nothing to do with biology or abiogenesis.

          You might as well deny gravity because we haven’t used a black hole to travel to Alpha Centauri already.

    • Matthew Stolz

      I would like to comment and correct some misunderstandings you have. The first I want to get at is this idea you have that if there is no proof presented to counter your belief that God exists, he therefore exists. The reason why God cannot be disproven is the same reason why leprechauns cannot be disproven. Can you disprove their existence? From what I understand they are quite elusive.

      What is your explanation for the origin of life? The way I see it, the fact that science has not found an explanation for exactly how life on earth got started (and probably never will) is irrelevant. Such lack of an explanation is not justification to play the “God did it” card. Abiogenesis and evolution are completely separate topics.

      That which can be admitted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. You have admitted Yahweh, or “God” without presenting evidence, therefore, I can dismiss him without evidence.

      As an atheist, I don’t assume there is no God. Do you assume there is no Krishna? I doubt that you do, you probably don’t believe in Krishna because you have not been convinced that the deity exists and therefore find the notion absurd. To assume the opposite of something is to suggest that it is also a possibility. Do we even know that your concept and definition of God is a possibility? From what I understand, something is only a possibility if it can in fact be demonstrated to be possible, otherwise the believing it possible is not rationally justified. We don’t have a testable, demonstrable “god” to examine to say that its existence is possible. If so, I can be justified in saying Shmrigghdsjk is possible. It means nothing if you can’t demonstrate the thing you have defined and proposed to be.

      As far as evolution goes, there are mountains of tangible, tested, and verifiable evidence that we have available to us. Go to any bookstore and pick up a book on biology. You have to be willing to even admit that you can be wrong before you’ll be open to digesting the information that is available to you. I say this as a former Christian turned atheist. So nobody here should have to present links to websites or articles for you, just Google that stuff.

      We don’t need to know how life got started to know that evolution has, is, and will continue to happen. What we can be certain of, is that under whatever conditions life got started it began to change over time, and all life that exists is a transitional form of something that came before it. It may not be noticeable within a few generations (although this can be observed), but give it thousands of generations over millions of years and the lifeform will most likely not resemble its ancestors from that long ago.

      You don’t understand what a theory in science means. You understand the word “theory” to mean this layman definition of an unsubstantiated idea, or a hunch. You confuse theory with hypothesis. A theory in science is the closest thing to fact as we can get, given the evidence we have available. Keep in mind that in science gravity is a theory.

      Why does anyone need to prove Christianity false? Do you feel you need to prove Islam false? Do you think Hinduism should be proved false before someone is rationally justified in not believing it? What is your hard evidence against knowing there is no Zeus or Thor, Osiris or Ra? Do you know there is no Krishna? You probably don’t think about it all that much to care about presenting evidence to refute them, because in your mind they are all so absurd to begin with. That is how I see your faith (I’m assuming you are Christian here based on what you wrote).

      Finally, I am not convinced that belief is a “choice”. I think belief is a compulsion, something we are compelled or convinced of. I don’t choose to believe in the god that you do, I simply don’t because I don’t find the premise, especially the Christian one, to be in any way convincing. I didn’t need or even use science to convince me of that, I read the Bible and researched the history of Christian beliefs. I invite you to do the same.

    • lindsay

      as I’ve said before, “intelligent design” is the modern equivalent of “zeus hurls thunderbolts”. when you don’t understand something, it means your ignorant like the dumb ass desert dwellers that wrote your scientifically inaccurate book of bullshit, NOT that “god created it”. and like Evolutionkills has mentioned MANY times, the burden of proof is on people who say there is a god, not on the people saying that they do not belive there is one. can you prove that pink unicorns aren’t there? how about Bigfoot, fairies or elves? prove that mohammed didn’t fly up to heaven on a winged horse or that Joseph Smith wasn’t visited by the angel Moroni. Prove it! see how you can’t prove that something is NOT there? but since you have no proof you try to turn it around on atheists. it DOES NOT WORK LIKE THAT! but I totally understand why you would want to do it that way. it relieves you of having to prove your god’s existence, because you know you can’t. if you had proof, you wouldn’t have to resort to faith. and about evolution, the catholic church also accepts it, just for the record.

  • Guest

    I have a few things I would like to ask. Assuming there is no God or Intelligent Designer at all for that matter, then what is the explanation of the origin of life? Given that evolution has already been proven, even by atheist scientists, to be just what it is, a theory, then what is the explanation of the origin of life? And where is your evidence, the factual, tangible stuff you can lay before me? If there is no real proof given, then God cannot be disproven. Whether or not one chooses to believe is not the issue here. If this is an argument against Christianity, then what is the proof that it is all false? I am not asking about your skeptical opinions or biased observations. What is the hard evidence for ‘knowing’ there is no God? Surely the arguments of an atheist are just as bigoted as a Christians, if bigoted is the term you wish to use.

    • EvolutionKills

      You clearly do not understand what a scientific theory is. It is not a wild guess, something pulled out of your ass at two in the morning after a half a dozen Red Bulls. A scientific theory is the highest level of scientific understanding, theories are used to explain fact. Evolution does happen, evolution is a fact. We also have laws, such as the law of universal gravitation. But how does evolution or gravity work? THAT’S the THEORY.

      If a god cannot be proved or disproved, than his existence does not win by default. In that case, the default position is ‘we don’t know’. So in light of that, claiming not only that a god exists, but that YOUR God exists, and Jesus is his son, or any other doctrinal obligation; requires arrogance and ignorance in orders of magnitude above and beyond anything reasonable. Quite simply, it’s all baseless presupposition. So you have no reason to believe as you do, let alone any reason for me to adopt your unsupported beliefs.

      As is, the existence of anything supernatural, let alone a god, let alone your God; is highly improbably. We can show this with Bayes Theorem, which allows us to describe the existence of god as a statistical probability. That being said, the Christian Bible is so contradictory in describing it’s God, that version of God simply cannot exists because it is logically impossible.

  • Chasmosaurus

    To clarify a few things Joshua Wensley left out in his rebuttal:

    #5 Slaves in Jewish society were mostly voluntary, and had vacations and specific priveleges, especially in the fact that a person born to a slave was automatically a free citizen. Totally unlike what we had in America and the former British Empire. Also, Paul wrote,very specifically, that he (not God) had a problem with women teaching in church, simply because the average woman is more likely to be emotionally swayed than the average man. Some even wonder from context if Paul even intended this to apply to any church other than that in Ephesus (this passage is in a letter he wrote to a leader in the church at Ephesus), where there was a very low educational standard for women at that time.

    #6 The “appearance of age” argument is a recent one, proposed by Christians who don’t like all the random chance that seems inextricably connected to modern discussions of origins and thus recoil from all mention of a nonliteral reading of the “days” in Genesis. Actually, the timeline in Genesis fits well with a modern understanding of the stages of the universe (e.g. the “Decoupling Era” of cosmology, in which light separated from matter, fits the “First Day” of Genesis). And the appendix does have a function. It serves as a bit of a bacteria sorter in the large intestine, by providing a haven for the good ones while the bad ones get expelled from the body.

    #7 I disagree with Wensley on this one. Recent climate models suggest that the Garden literally existed during the last ice ages in the exposed valley of what is now the Persian Gulf, the geography of which fits the Biblical accounts perfectly. Also, the tree was not the only source of knowledge of objective moral standards. God was teaching His people to follow Him, showing them that they did not need the darker side of knowledge that the tree offered, but they decided they would rather have their own way than His perfect teaching.

    #23 This point is totally wrong. Christians do believe that God examines people’s hearts, and if they are truly seeking Him, He will provide a way for them. The purpose of evangelism is to turn those who are rebelling and to provide hope for those who are seeking, but God has shown that he is not bound by humans’ ability to spread the news (e.g. recent visions in several Muslim countries).

    One thing that the author here assumes in several points is that God arbitrarily decided to to what He did. To the contrary, God is bound by His nature just as surely as humans are bound by physical limitations. Things like intervening to keep Eve from eating from the tree or forcing people to accept His love are absolutely contrary to His nature, which values freedom.

    • EvolutionKills

      What evidence do you have for the ‘nature’ of your God?

      How would ‘valuing freedom’ prevent you from stopping someone you know is going to hurt themselves?

      What evidence do you have that objective moral standards exist?

  • http://www.facebook.com/faustinah.perez Faustinah Santiago

    I just love this. Well done and said.

  • http://www.facebook.com/andre.cronje007 Andre Cronje

    Hahaha, that was very good, great vocabulary as well. Your speech will make for an excellent icebreaker when you meet Him …

    • EvolutionKills

      Funny how your god only cares to show himself after we’re dead and it can’t be verified. Heaven forbid we get enough information to make an informed decision in this life, instead we only learn for certain after we die, and then it’s too late to change our minds. Gods’s infinite mercy extends only so far as our moral lives, after we’re dead, the doors of Heaven are closed.

      And that doesn’t at all strike you as cruel, capricious, and entirely arbitrary? Cause that sound like the kind of bullshit spread by people pushing a religion that they don’t want questioned, in the effort to exert control over others. It appears to be a very human creation, and not at all divine. I’d expect better from the creator of the universe, and I daresay you should too.

      • Nau What?

        God does not lay out his being black and white because our lives are a test of our faith towards him.

        • EvolutionKills

          Evidence?

          It’s not a test of our faith, it’s a test of our credulity. Just how much stupid bullshit can you swallow down and convince yourself you enjoy the taste?

    • Icim Tooyy

      Interesting, xtians think non-believers’ eternal torment is a source of amusement, actually hysterically funny. Very compassionate, and god-like.

  • Lottie

    That isn’t an argument. All you did was give a summary (a very basic one with such ignorance of the actual religion I might add) and make a mockery of it. There’s plenty of evidence supporting Christianity all you have to do is look. I recommend the book “A Case for Christ” by Lee Strobel. The guy knows his stuff and it has plenty of unbiased evidence and lots of good logical arguments. Please do more research before you start attacking other peoples beliefs with incorrect statements and making accusations that aren’t true.

    • EvolutionKills

      Lee Strobel is an utter and complete hack, and if you found anything in that book compelling, then you really need to work on your critical thinking skills. Unbiased evidence? Strobel never once interviews a person with an opposing opinion! He interviews other Christians only, then gets their opinions on their own opposition! How is that unbiased? He lambastes ideas like evolution and groups like the Jesus Seminary, but never once talks to a reputable evolutionary biologist or any member of the Jesus Seminar. He also quote mines people he doesn’t agree with, like philosopher Bertrand Russel.

      Lee Stobel didn’t write ‘A Case for Chrsit’ for the sake of convincing skeptics. He wrote it to make people who already believe feel more comfortable in their belief. It was written so that uncritical believers like yourself can think you have good reason and evidence for your beliefs, when your couldn’t be any further from the truth. He appears to have never looked for an answer outside of Christianity. His faith was his foregone conclusion, and he set out to prove it, not to test it.

      To quote Steve Shives.

      “Were I to take the most charitable position possible after reading this book, were I to accept Strobel’s claims that he was an atheist and that his intention was to present the facts about Jesus to other atheists and skeptics so that they might judge for themselves, were I to ignore the bias and attempts at manipulation, the best I could say for The Case for Christ is that it is a chronicle of its author’s credulity. If this was the evidence and these were the arguments that transformed Strobel from an atheist to a born-again evangelical Christian, I’m afraid it doesn’t say much for him.”

      http://stevelikescurse.livejournal.com/tag/case%20for%20christ

  • Lottie

    One more thing. You claim there were no eye witness accounts of Jesus’ teaching in number 24. I’d like to point out that Mathew, James, John, and Peter were all eye witnesses to Jesus’ miracles. In fact James, John and Peter were in Jesus’ inner circle. Plus Paul ministered with Peter and Luke was Pauls’ personal historian. On top of that Mark was a disciple of Peter. So let’s see, four eye witnesses and two authors who know eye witnesses very well. Again make sure you do your research before you start making claims that aren’t true. Think about this too, these authors were all persecuted and killed (with the exception of John who survived being boiled in oil to then go on and die a natural death) for what they believed. If they were lying do you really think they would have DIED for it? Would you die for something you knew was made up?

    • Psyllia

      They didn’t know it was made up. Suicide bombers in Islam truly believe that martyrdom will reward them in the afterlife and that Allah will praise them for dying for him. Why would they die for something like that? “Eye witness accounts”—that contradict one another!

      What did Jesus say before he died?
      John 19:30 – When he had received the drink, Jesus said, It is finished. With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.
      Luke 23:46 – Jesus called out with a loud voice, “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit. When he had said this, he breathed his last.

      Who was at Jesus’ tomb when it was first visited?
      Mark 16:5 – One Young Man
      Matthew 28:5 – One Angel
      Luke 24:4 – Two men
      John 20:12 – Two angels

      Seems accurate to me…

    • EvolutionKills

      The Gospels were not written by those who’s authorship they are currently attributed by layman. They where all written anonymously by non-eyewitnesses, many decades after the supposed events occurred. There is no contemporary attestation or corroboration with other historical accounts.

      All the information you have comes from the Bible. Guess what? The Bible is the CLAIM, not the PROOF. You are trying to make the fallacious step of using the Bible to prove the Bible. Sorry, doesn’t work that way. When somebody asks “why should I believe anything in the Bible?”, you can’t answer with “cause the Bible says so”. That’s not an adequate reason. Don’t believe me? Why aren’t you a Muslim then? The Koran claims it is the final revelation of your God. How can they prove this? The Koran says so! Did that convince you to become a Muslim? I didn’t think so…

      So, back to your claims. What evidence do we have for the existence of the disciples, let alone their supposed martyrs deaths? The Bible. Once again, the stories that you are trying to claim as proof, are not proof, they are claims. Their own historical accuracy and validity can not be assumed, they must be proven. And to do so requires looking outside the Bible for contemporary attestation. We find none for Jesus or any of his disciples; let alone any of their deaths, the resurrection, or any other miracles.

      And even within the Bible, which 12 disciples died martyr’s deaths? When did they die, and how did they die? You won’t even be able to find all of that in the Bible. Most of the martyr’s deaths claims are church tradition, with no grounding in any history. Die for a lie? Most likely their lives, and their deaths, ARE the lies.

      Also, if willingness to die for a belief is evidence of truth, then the Heaven’s Gater’s where right in believing that an alien spacecraft was in the shadows of the Hale Bop comment and took their souls away to an alien world after they committed suicide. The 9-11 hijackers most assuredly believe in the one true god and his prophet, because they couldn’t possible have flown those planes into building if they didn’t really believe it; and since they dies martyrs death in full knowledge of what they were doing, then surely their belief was correct? Right?

      Belief does not equate to truth. Just because most people alive during the time the Old Testament was written, believed that the world was flat, supported by four pillars, encompassed by the solid firmament, and the center of all creation; did not make it any more true.

      “Again make sure you do your research before you start making claims that aren’t true”

      Oh the irony! Listening to the pandering trip your pastor regurgitates up on Sundays is not ‘research’…

      Reductio ad absurdum – ‘reduction to absurdity’

      Please attempt to learn a little bit about the basics of logic and reasoning. Then go back and actually read the Bible on your own. Then do some ‘research’ outside of just asking your pastor or fellow church members what they ‘believe’. Go read ‘Jesus Interrupted’ or ‘Forged’ by Bart D. Ehrman, or ‘A History of God’ by Karen Armstrong, or ‘The Christian Delusion’ by John W. Loftus, or ‘Gospel Fictions’ by Randal Helms. Just a heads up, but the lay community is about 30-50 years behind the curve of the scholarly community. What is now widely accepted among biblical scholars now (for example, that Moses did not author the Old Testament and most likely didn’t even exist), is scandalous among the lay community. If you take your education to that level, all of your preconceptions will be challenged.

      Broaden your horizons and stop uncritically accepting what others tell you because they share your ‘faith’. If you really do posses the ‘one true faith’, then it should stand up to close scrutiny and you should not fear testing it. If you do fear testing it, if you are afraid of what you’ll find, then that’s all the more reason to test it and find out just how valid your belies are. If you’re more concerned with seeking the truth rather than accepting a comfortable lie, then study more than just the Bible. But if you’re comfortable in your assumed (and not proven) aprioi belief, that is fine. But then kindly shut the hell up and remain in your own little world. If you speak up and join the conversation, nobody else will be pulling any punches, and you will be shown up as the ignorant fool that you currently are. So you can educate yourself, or keep your mouth shut.

      I sincerely hope you do the former, but most likely you’ll do the later, and be all the worse for it.

      • lindsay

        Not only is there ZERO evidence for jesus outside the bible, (there were many historians at the time yet not a single person recorded his existence or any of the miraculous events like walking on water, healing the sick, casting out demons, feeding 5 thousand people with a few fish and loaves of bread ect) but there is also not a shred of evidence for any of the other major claims that should have left MOUNTAINS of verifiable evidence. the Israelites roaming in the wilderness? not a single shred of evidence. NOTHING has ever been found. not a bone, not a tooth, nada. zip. zilch. and millions of people supposedly died there. I know this doesn’t even phase Christians who won’t stop beliving even when direct evidence is thrust at the feet of their claims out of fear and the reward that they believe they will get simply for being gullible and opening their mind to ANY gobsmackingly foolish unproven belief, but for that many people to die in the wilderness and to not leave a single artifact is pretty damn bizarre. in fact, it’s downright impossible. not only that, all the massacres of children (just one of the many times that the loving, kind and merciful god went on one of his infanticidal rampages) that supposedly happened in Egypt, also left no evidence. the Christian author mark roncace, says this: “none of this was ever written down by the Egyptians who were meticulous in keeping records of all kinds. if the first born of every household in Egypt had died on a single night, that would have been the watershed event in Egyptian history. imagine how the entire Egyptian culture and civilization would have been irreversibly altered in one stroke. yet there is not a single word about it in any of the numerous existing Egyptian writings-nothing in official court records, no poem of lament, no evidence of mass burials, nothing”. and then there is noah’s flood, which was not only plagurized and copied from an even older myth (the Gilgamesh epic) like MANY of the bible stories (mark roncace also admits this. he’s not a typical Christian, forever excusing, rationalizing and trying to justify his beliefs. he ADMITS the problems with it and that’s why I respect him.) anyways, there is NO EVIDENCE for a worldwide flood as described in genesis. no archaeological, no chemical, no physical, no geological, no genetic and no zoological evidence at all. all of the findings, from every type of science that exists, is that it DID NOT HAPPEN! can’t forget the scientific absurdities and contradictions, which are too numerous to mention. and lastly, we have jesus’s lies about how the end times were supposed to happen. “there be some STANDING HERE, which shall not taste death til’ they see the son of man coming in his kingdom” was said 2,000 years ago by Jesus to his disciples. of course, Christians realizing this didn’t happen as planned now say he was talking about his followers now, instead of the ones standing right in front of him which anyone with a brain (and not desperate to belive a myth) can clearly see he was addressing. I wonder how many people living now were STANDING THERE 2,000 years ago? Jesus also says that these very people-the ones standing right before him, wouldn’t finish preaching in certain towns before he came back. jesus’s disciples also mention, many times, throughout the bible that their messiah was going to come back soon, as a matter of fact, IN THEIR LIFETIMES just like he promised-over 2,000 years ago! there are also many, many, MANY places in the bible where Jesus claims that god will answer your prayers, (Mathew 7:7, Mathew 17:20, Mathew 21:21, Mark 11:24, John 14:12-14, Mathew 18:19 and James 5:15-16, just to name a few) and there are NO RESTRICTIONS on this! funny how it doesn’t work the way the “living son of god” claims it will, isn’t it? okay, so we have a book riddled with errors, contradictions, discrepencies and scientific absurdities as the only so-called “proof” of god, this same book has made many claims, none of which can be verified in ANY way, the events that it describes have been flat-out disproved by science and archaeology, many of the stories in the bible have been plagurized by even older myths (like Mithraism) and the promises Jesus makes CLEARLY don’t work or come true , but Christians still swear he’s real and want everyone else to belive he’s real, too. because you know, there’s just soooooo much overwhelming evidence, how can you NOT belive in him and the brilliant book known as the bible, which has told us of so many things that scientists had not yet been able to discover, I would be here all day if I listed them all! it’s amazing! it’s not backwards at all-you are wowed by the amazing scientific minds of the bible’s many (40+) authors! and they are finding more and more archaeological eveidence for all of the stories in the bible, that are not far-fetched or ridiculous at all! talking snakes and donkeys is something you see EVERY SINGLE DAY in every part of the world! LOL okay, okay. i’m done. you just have to laugh at it because it’s so utterly fucking absurd! and before some Christian responds to me by doing the only thing they seem to know how to do- by asking “well, who made the world and how did we get here”? all I have to say is, “intelligent design” is like the equivalent of “Zeus hurls thunderbolts”. it lacks imagination and intellectual scope. when you don’t understand something, it means your ignorant, not that god created it. isn’t that essentially what the bible writers did? they had no clue about the underlying physical and chemical principals that made their world what it was and went by the best intuition they had, guessed about the things they didn’t understand and attributed it all to god. (this is why people who are still trying to make these “holy writings” make sense in terms of the real world continue to suffer-and pester sensible people) this was all before rational scientific thought came into play. we should be beyond that in 2014, don’t ya think?

  • Nau What?

    If there is, or never has been, a god, then how do we even know what a god is in the first place? Is this some sort of 1000+ page lie that people decided to come up with one day (and spend years after years coming up with) to simply laugh and have enjoyment out of in the future? When they fully believed that they already wouldn’t live long enough to enjoy the fruits of their labor, because there is nothing beyond life on this planet?

    God may not seem perfect to imperfect beings, but when the lord has control over all how can you argue with him?

    Isaiah 55:8-9

    “For my thoughts are not your thoughts,
    neither are your ways my ways, declares the Lord.
    For as the heavens are higher than the earth,
    so are my ways higher than your ways
    and my thoughts than your thoughts.”

    • Psyllia

      How do we know of a god in the first place? … As humans we inherently come up with false positives. At one point in time we didn’t know what caused disease or what made the sun come up. Logically, we decided there was some divine being that was responsible. Until modern science. God of the Gaps, it was how we explained many events that could not be explained without some supernatural force. And you said “Is this some sort of 1000+ page lie that people decided to come up with one day…” My question for you would then be, what of other religions? Is the Qur’an just an 1,000 page lie that people decided to come up with one day? If you think yes, then how can you not believe this for your own holy book—illogical selectivity. Most religions during conception are believed. Egyptians truly believed that Ra was the sun God. Greeks truly believed that Zeus created thunder. From your logic, every religion is accurate because 1) If it is not accurate, then how did someone come up with or why did they lie? 2) The Bible says it is the Word of God. As does the Qur’an, the Book of Mormon, the Bhagavad Gita…

    • JoshDS

      Did you post so that you could say, or did you post so that you could listen? Because I have an explanation to that verse but I do not want to waste my time with endless discussion that lead nowhere.
      Bible has been misinterpreted a lot. Most want to use it for their advantage. If It say love everyone and let’s say I have this idea that love hurts, which then I would technically be ok with hitting my partner. Would beating up my significant other be ok with the bible? Oh! And let’s say I use this verse to back me up “Love suffers long and is kind…” 1 Corinthians 13:4 (KJV).
      What did I just do there? I completely skipped the rest of the verse and also used a version that might favored my point… Most, Christians and Non-Christians, use Bible to their benefit, to excuse their actions to say killing is ok, hitting your wives is ok, etc. People forget that the bible has also been translated and not every saying means same thing through time right? It is stupid to think that way. A good example is the word Americans use known as “bad”, “oh dude, that was bad!” When in reality it means the opposite nowadays.

      • classycatlady1989

        So by your logic…everything in the bible is subject to interpretation? If that is the case then there really is no cause for organized religion because how do we know that what these people are “interpreting” is the correct interpretation. If the bible has been so “misinterpreted” over the years then who’s to say that the things that christians get so upset about such as : sex before marriage, abortion, homosexuals…etc were actually misinterpreted? Your logic actually hurts your argument.

  • Athelitist

    The argument is very intelligent, but your grammar and sentence structure is horrible. This decreases reliability of your claims because you come across as being educated and having done much research, but can’t properly articulate your valid points.

    Point 12 “…again, with infallible certainty that this family to will ultimately disappointing in the same way…” – this wording is terrible

    Point 13 “Instruct this small disappointment of a family to…” – Again, a valid point. However, calling them a disappointment of a family shows you let your opinion and emotion get in the way of simply showing the facts, which are enough

    Point 15 – This among other points (19, 21, and more) are one big run on sentence with improper punctuation and littered with spelling errors. This is almost worse than some of the Christian arguments I have seen.

    It would be great if you could take all of this valid information and properly type it out. You went through a great deal of time to collect and analyze a large amount of data, but sound like a retard when you type it out. By sacrificing a little extra effort and perhaps a friend to proof read your work, you decreased its effectiveness significantly. Now, all the Christians who read this can pick this aspect of your work apart (rightfully so) and continue to prove themselves to be the judgmental and ignorant sect that they are. However, this could have been easily avoided and much more effective had you taken the time to properly say what you were thinking.

    Best of luck in the future, you’re going to need it.

    • EvolutionKills

      You did watch the video, right? You know this whole post is nothing but a transcript of the YouTube video, right? So giving a critique about the script of a video on a post that was not created by the individual responsible for the original video is kinda pointless.

  • I Love TheoreticalBullshit

    I suggest to everyone who watches the above video to watch the rest of TheoreticalBullshit’s (AKA Scott Clifton’s) videos; this particular video is one of the few in which he is so self-indulgent in his exploration of Christianity (for the sake of a humorous comment on how ridiculous the Bible sounds) and doesn’t reflect his typical approach in which he rationally and logically explores his topics. Nevertheless, knowing Scott’s usual style and his intention behind this video, this is still pretty funny. ;)

  • cfc emmaus

    Amen to Number 25. It will end up that we praise and worship God for His Work. It is written in Revelations and every heart of Christians.

    All of your listed arguments in fact points to God and His Son. In fact, you even point to the possibility of the supposed contradictions you are claiming here.

    Man’s wisdom is foolishness to God. Better seek God’s wisdom.

    • EvolutionKills

      If all of those points did somehow point to a god, then all they show is that god is very stupid, evil, and impotent.

      Worship that monster if you choose, but I see no evidence to support the conclusion that we all live in a celestial dictatorship.

  • Icim Tooyy

    And still, they believe in and defend a god, capable of creating this entire thing (universe, and all,) would continue to allow, oh, let’s see now…spina bifida, flesh-eating bacteria, multiple sclerosis, polio, cancer, AIDS, genetic deformities, still births, retardation, to name a few, but the most mind-boggling thing is that it would allow shear stupidity to continue to be misinterpreted and spread around, and out-and-out crime being excused because it was supposedly done “in his name.” Puleeze. THEN, they say atheist throw their “beliefs” in the face of xtians. It would be comical, if it weren’t true.

  • Teresa

    Oh man, this was good. Short, to the point, and encompassed so many reasons why I’ve rejected the Christian faith. What a heartbreaking lie it all is! Thanks for your video :-)

  • Guest

    Superb! I thought this was one of the best summaries I’ve ever read of Christianity’s inanities.

    “Stupid, by any other name,
    Still rots the life and cakes the brain.
    A gilded turd is still not delight,
    But maketh one want the incence to light.
    So beware the pig purses that are said to be silk,
    Or else you’ll be blighted like the rest of their ilk!”

    I’ve read many of the comments below. Here’s a simple summary of why so many people were tee’d off by this brilliant string of pearls:

    Put simply, Christians are a self-reflexive lot. I know. I used to be one. They do not want to know what’s cooking in those pots on the back burners of their minds. They won’t lift the lids to see what’s simmering back there. Many of them–and I do mean many–already suspect something is terribly wrong with the way they are taught to see the world. But they are afraid to come out of the closet and speak up, because they think their congregation members will consider them prayer cases or accuse them of having sin in their lives. So they clam up. But the doubts not only continue, they gather strength.

    Christians go ballistic when someone points out the elephant standing in the corner of their Sunday School room. They don’t see the obvious. It has to be shown them point-blank. And this list of critical insights does just that. It shows just what Christianity looks like when its not in the make-up chair.

  • Ethan Marshall

    Excellent!
    This is perhaps the best list I’ve ever read detailing Christianity’s inanities. It does a splendid job of exposing the elephant in the corner of the room.

    It also shows how this religion’s theological ‘thinking’ cuts up the brain like powered glass would the body of the imbiber. This religion deteriorates the faculty of Reason to degrees horrifying.

    The reason so many religious people commented negatively on this exquisite string of 25 pearls is simple: it reveals just what Christianity looks like when its not in the make-up chair. It makes luminous the hardest thing to see, which is The Obvious. Christians do not know what they look like or sound like to others, and so it is a shock when they “overhear’ themselves when listening to their own beliefs expressed by another; only this is heard straight-up and not through the filter of theological correctness. Harold Bloom once commented that Shakespeare’s characters change through overhearing themselves. Perhaps if Christians developed this skill with integrity, they might finally see what we’ve been trying to make plain to them. To be sure, many Christians themselves have secret doubts about much of what they’ve been taught, but are afraid to come clean about it for fear they will be thought of as prayer cases or as people with sin in their life.

    Here’s my own contribution in this tryst for Rationality:

    “Against the GodBots”

    Though ‘stupid’ be called by some other name,
    Yet still doth it rot life and cake up the brain.
    A gilded turd shall not profit, delight,
    But maketh one want the incence to light.
    Beware those pig-purses they say claim are of silk,
    Or else you’ll be blighted with the rest of their ilk.
    For the stuff they call ‘reason’ is demonstrably bad,
    And doth make the imbibers who drink it quite Mad.
    They’re Mad Hares with lances of straw in their hair,
    To whom Lear with his flowery wreath may compare.
    A snake that did talk, an ass that did speak
    Are a part and a parcel of the Faith of the Meek.
    Yet what happened back then is still hap’ning today:
    The snakes are still slithering, and the asses do bray
    In a tongue neither vulgar nor out of its time
    But floating off tongues from preachers divine.
    So beware when these Hatters invites you to tea,
    And declare that his gift of salvation is free.
    For ’tis not a gift but a threat well-concealed,
    And the knife ‘neath the honey is but lately revealed.
    Let not their terrors, your Reason, reform,
    But stand boldly your deck and grip helm ‘gainst their storm.
    And order your broadsides of Reason, “Attack!”
    Then watch as they with their curses fall back.
    You are seen as quite mad in a world gone insane,
    ‘Cause you choose to live by the skill of your brain.
    ‘Tis the lot of the witty, the sane and the able,
    To be thought of as strange by the masses unstable.
    They are drunk on their wine, you are dry on your Science,
    And only to that you give holy compliance.
    But you have to your credit a past without guilt,
    For ‘pon this green earth never blood have you spilt.
    So may you live merry with that good name instead,
    To hell with those others: keep feeding your head.

    Cheers!

  • Lazarus

    Dear Lord, our God has a sense of humor…

    Shall we start?

    1: eternal power over everything… Wouldn’t you get bored too?

    2: again, sense of humor (Lucifer means bringer of light, hahaha)… But it seems more like, he knows it will happen, but he wants to believe that it wouldn’t.

    3: he allows it to exist because it had always existed, Hell is not a horrific place because it is horrific. The Christian faith describes it as horrible because it is eternity without God. No point in taking it away, because if you take away hell the next area where all the people who has turned away from God would just be the next hell…

    4: I see nothing wrong with this, truly.

    5: I believe there is something written in the Bible that it is better to tie a noose around your neck attached to a boulder thrown into a lake then mess with one of the little ones. Just might be my shoddy memory. But I can say this… Ten amendments, thou shall not kill. The killing of others through the excuse of religion is not encouraged by the Bible… Education of women and wife beating on the other hand, I know nothing about so I just won’t touch on it till I do some research…

    6: I’d like to see you do the same thing without same thing… Go design a working animal or two without any true flaws, all of which being aesthetically symmetric, then you have the right to complain.

    7: Back to the humor point… But hey, it was kinda simple. Don’t eat the freaking apple or you and your ancestors will be screwed for all eternity… I’d like to argue that they’d still eat the fruit had they have knowledge to begin with, tempted by more knowledge…

    8: reptile was a fallen angel, hey it was a test. God likes them, these tests… Rather simple one really, all mighty shiny being or small little snake with legs, which would you listen to? Obviously they failed…

    9: Because it’s funner this way. On an all serious note, maybe he changed his mind. Maybe he decided that we might deserve heaven more if we rosed up ourselves instead of mooching off our sin-free clean slate like the two prototypes, which i might add… failed…

    10: Might I add that you have a very bleak way of looking at things. It’s more of our own fault then anything. He doesn’t condemn us, we condemn ourselves. We go to Hell because we turn away from him, we willingly walk towards hell.

    11: New game plus anyone? At least he promised not to do it again

    12: I’d like to think that he knows what would happen, but still chooses to believe in us to not do it. That or maybe it’s just funny.

    13: incest is bad now? Why aren’t you the judgy one. But if you think about it clearly enough, wouldn’t it be normal, I mean the first humans would be related to themslves anyway right? How else would the first humans get more humans? No matter how you split it it’s gonna end up in incest anyway. Common sense people.

    14: It’s a work in progress.

    15: I highly doubt he really did stopped alltogether. But still really, the number of crazies in the world, it’s not that hard to ignore these miracles even if they do happen, just pass it off as something weird and move on. Like say a blue police box in the middle of the street or something.

    16: Well it’s a lot easier then reading an entire two books the size of a dictionary. I mean really, have you read it? I think not!

    17: Him but not him, why not? I mean the son is actually a lot more fair then the father.

    18: All the while making living life as a completely sin free human akin to child’s play, your point being?

    19: meh much better then before anyway.

    20 : It’s a test! A test! A good one really, if you really need to see to believe you aren’t believing hard enough!

    21: Most court trials are solved through eyewitness events anyway. You know how hard it is to preserve evidence for such a long time? Especially when these evidence are buried or stored in eventual tourist traps? You try preserving a wooden cross for two thousand freaking years!

    22: It’s a test! What one gets from reading the bible and how one uses it is another test! Here’s a usually good guide, if you’re convince killing/abduction/rape of another is justified, you’re usually wrong!

    23: Explanation please? Kind of hard to tell what you mean by this

    24: Now who in the world ever said that? Care to debate on this matter?

    25: I’d wanna be praised too really. I mean really, made a whole freaking universe and you ungrateful bastards are all i get??

  • Me

    Interesting essay, but overall it’s just list of gripes about Christianity. Some gripes are on point, some are categorically wrong. Regardless, this essay does nothing to dispute well established facts about Jesus’ existence, miracles, and ressurrection.

  • Vetguy94

    I would like to see some of your evidence for the points you make, please.

  • JEKinTX

    Rational
    Thinking is Faith Sinking

    or
    Faith Isn’t Actual ‘Thinking’…or… There’s No Such Thing as
    ‘Rational Faith’.

    By
    JEKinTX

    Christians that they came to their “Faith”
    under the conditions of “A-Priori” acceptance of a
    particular interpretation of a part of the OT/NT Bible did so without
    understanding or knowing that it has within it contradictions and
    many conundrums within it’s “hallowed” pages. That is, they did
    not actually know well enough what they were subscribing to; as in an
    unprivy beginner brought into an enclave of zealots believing a
    seminar’s claims and signing onto a multi-level marketing scheme.
    This includes the assumption that the right type of “morality”
    is contained within the scriptures before they knew what actual
    scriptural doctrine was and what type of interpretation they should
    accept based upon some other person’s authotity (preacher to pope)
    and/or a denomination’s blanket proclaimation of what is to be a
    correct or incorrect interpretation. Even so, all these doctrines
    and traditions are the work of men they coud never cross-examine and
    thr said believer’s faith never came directly from “actual”
    Divine Revelation as was so conveniently provided to the characters
    from within the Bible itself- if it were to be taken at “face-value”.
    It does therefore seem (does it not?) that the God of the Bible is a
    “Respector of Persons” afterall, how else could it be
    accepted that some are given Divine Revelation while the rest must
    accept second-handed stories handed down through millenia that was
    reinterpretated, translated, transliterated, and not a single
    original copy much less a confirmation of whom truly were the authors
    and what was their agenda at the time was to be given? And yet for
    all this conjecture, Science and Reason are being held at more than
    arm’s length by “Believers” and worse “attacked” as they
    understand WELL that these tools spell demise for their so-called
    “infalliable proclaimations of Faith”.

    How an all Knowing, All Good God could not see the inherent problems associated with approaching Belief through Faith is beyond any type of rational thinking. The better “fix”, of course, would have been to
    provide sufficient EVIDENCE (none of which is availabale to any
    “believer” to date) that was irrefutable rather than devise
    a tricky agency of some ineffiable self-induced fantasy such as
    Faith…especially if it were truly the desire of an All-Knowing,
    All-Powerful, All-Good God to bring “all men” unto him and to
    be saved? What sensible God would allow room for such controversy
    and sincere doubt? Why would a Loving-God knowing that people with
    actual brains and intelligence would question the sketchy and often
    conundrum-filled details of the Bible allow such things to be the
    ONLY tool whereby people were supposed to know with any level of
    “certainty” that these tales were other than allegorical,
    poetic, or mythological writings?

    As a “Believer”, dear Reader, if you fit such a “description”, the
    REALITY is this- you don’t know even yet if everything you
    believe is supported by either the Scripture or even more so the
    luxury of Logic, Reason, and Science to be on your side. The
    whole notion of “Faith” posits that DOUBT is also a
    reasonable conjecture toward religious and/or spiritual claims…so
    much that Faith must be accepted with no Evidence thereof..because if
    you had Evidence there would be no need for Faith. Faith is not
    based on Facts it is based on A Priori assumption and hence very weak
    knowledge. It appears Scripturally that the more out of touch a
    person is with REALITY the more Faith they possess. Yet, even the
    scriptures say that “faith can move mountains” but REALITY
    shows that such is not the case…and if one’s “Faith” as a
    “Believer” whom are promised to do “greater things”
    that JC himself (supposedly by his own admittance) if one hasn’t the
    “Faith” to actually move a mountain from where it is and be
    “cast into the sea” then it is obvious IS IT NOT that one
    can’t say that they even have sufficient “Faith” for
    “Salvation”…even as said…not one Christain has raised a
    dead person to life nor has one “walked on water”…yet
    Jesus says that to NOT DO IT is “of little/weak Faith” (O,
    ye of little faith).

    As we see (rationally) Faith is arbitrary and so insubstantial that it
    in itself is a very weak argument to begin with. Even the “great”
    Paul struggles with what Faith actually was/is…confidence, a
    substance, some etheral spiritual power…as it was obvious to any
    Early Christian that without their Faith they had no reason at all to
    believe in Christianity or it’s multiple claims of the supernatural.

    “I contend we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than
    you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible
    gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours.”

    -Stephen F. Roberts as quoted in “Like Rolling Uphill: Realizing
    The Honesty Of Atheism.”

  • Michael Widick

    I don’t understand why people like this try to prove that the Trinity doesn’t exist. I know why. God said that they would. That’s how you know he exist because his word is true. Check!

    • Skylar Dunn

      Right, because it’s not like religions were ever disputed during the lives of the people that wrote about it so that they came to the conclusion that it would continue.

      • Michael Widick

        You are doing exactly what He said you would do by replying to my message. Thanks for proving my point.

        • Ras

          Do you have any evidence that proves ‘His’ point? Unless you do, you are pretty much proving Skylar’s point. Even so, your sense of logic is circular and thus fallacious.

  • JH

    Why do people critique the Bible so much? It is a history book of Jesus’ lineage. Do you go through and critique your high school history book? It is a testament of time. God gave people freedom of choice. Most of the time, the people depicted in this history book do NOT do God’s will. Time and time again, they go against God. If it was a false religion, all the bad parts would have been conveniently removed to make it more appealing, right?

    People often try to deny Christianity based off the actions of “Christians”. Honestly, I will say that I have personally witnessed Christians with a holier-than-thou attitude. Why? By Biblical standards, all have sinned. You, me and the “holiest” preacher have all sinned. Sins are sins. It is not being Christian that makes people holy. God is holy, not us. By thinking that we are somehow holy just because we are Christian is taking the glory from God. Maybe because those “Christians” believe they are going to heaven and condemn everybody else. Well, the truth of the matter is. all have fallen short of the glory of God. So why should I boast that I am going to heaven as if it were by some “wonderful” deed I did. How foolish. I did nothing. His mercy is the only way I could even come close. This is why I have such a problem with Catholics, thinking you can pay for redemption with Earthly treasures, praying and paying for those who have already passed and saying that there is one man, the pope, who can talk to God. We can pray to him whenever we want. Or praying to other dead people to speak to God for us. How about a man forgiving a man’s sins and cleansing his soul. Really? These concepts are not Biblical and instead man-made and corrupt. I am Non-denominational Christian. I follow the Bible. Prior to Christ, it was a history book leading up the Christ. Jesus was the point of it all. When He came it defined how things should be. Love children: let them come and do not hinder them for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these. He held woman up. He without sin cast the first stone. I never really understood the beauty of that until I realized He was the only one without sin and therefore he could have cast the first stone. Instead, mercy and love was extended. So back to people. You claim that Hilter was a Christian. Well, he hated the Jews. What better weapon to use the guise of a religion that the Jews oppose. When did Hitler ever live Christianity, in any regard. Yes, we are all sinners and all falter, but when you are a Christian, you at least make an effort to live like Jesus (notice that I said Jesus and not “the Bible”). I did not see that at all. I see a man who took advantage of a fragile people (the Germans) to pursue his own selfish, Earthly desires. I agree with many who say that there are “Christians” who use people and take money from them. These people: Joel Olstene and anybody on TBN preach wealth, health and happiness. Also Earthy and humanistic. We were never guaranteed any of this on Earth. In fact, many times, we provide a way for just the opposite. I never saw Jesus preaching to the masses to collect money to live in million dollar mansions. We are not to accumulate earthly treasures.
    Fom a realistic perspective, would you agree that there are soooo many absolutely brilliant people. Scientists, engineers, doctors. Yet not one can create something from nothing. Not one can even create a cell. Lets take a rudimentary concept and apply this here. Let’s say we have a tree, cotton in a field and metal underground. I tell you that if wait a million years, these things will somehow converge and make a chair. You would call me crazy right? Well, let’s take it a step further and say that I will mine the metal, gather the cotton and cut down the tree and put them all in the pile. Surely now it will become something. Okay, still no change. Let’s go one more step further. I, now the “creator” of this chair, melts down the metal (which has to have a certain amount of heat to accomplish, just like we need a certain amount of heat to sustain life) and create the nails for the chair, weave the cotton into fabric and carve the wood into legs, a seat and the back of the chair. Surely now it has all the elements to become something…nope. If anything, everything is geared towards decomposing. So even something as simplistic as a chair cannot simple come to existence, how can anybody say intellectually that we just “happened”. That everything, all life, the complexity of everything needed to exist, just fell together? Or how about the whole God is like a clockmaker theory. Since life is so complex, the logical conclusion is there is a God to create life, but then simply left us to our own device, much like a clockmaker would put the clock on the mantle. Really? Willing to believe that God exist and that he created us, but still deny Christianity and refuse to have a personal relationship with the Creator. I don’t get it.
    I have more to write, but have run out of time. I will try to make it back here. I honestly want to understand your point of view until it makes sense to me…

    • EvolutionKills

      A history book? Please, not even close. They’re propaganda that flies in the face of almost all contemporary historical accounts. They are at best hearsay stacked upon hearsay written decades (if not centuries) after the supposed events, by non-eyewitnesses, and have been miss-translated and edited both by accident and purposeful manipulation. They were created to spread ‘the good word’, not as accurate works of history.

      Well, why not cut out the bad bits? Simple, it hasn’t stopped you from calling yourself a Christian now has it? Your question fails even as you ask it.

      Just because we cannot yet create something from nothing (and depending on how you define ‘nothing’, we actually can at the quantum level); how is that at all evidence that a god can, or that it’s your god, or that it approves of your take on Christianity? Quite simply, it is not. You are merely using the classic ‘god of the gaps’ argument; which goes ‘I don’t know, therefor god’. It is not intellectually honest or at all compelling to those who don’t already believe in your interpretation of your god; because it lacks any evidence.

      That’s really your whole argument, it is an argument from incredulity. You don’t know how to explain things without your god, therefore your god must exist. It is weak and infantile reasoning that lacks evidence; and would leave us still wallowing in abject ignorance if it was still considered adequate today like it was back in the Dark Ages. Your particular interpretation of your particular god concept is not the logical answer to your ignorance; the real answer is ‘I don’t know’. It’s that simple, it really is. ‘I don’t know’ is a great answer, it is refreshingly honest, and does not fool you into thinking you have the answers. It readies you to go find out, to keep your mind open to all possibilities, and to determine what is probably based on the available evidence.

      Simply put, complete lack of evidence for your god is not proof for your god’s existence. In light of the complete lack of evidence, there is no reason to presuppose your god’s existence.

  • Christbrothah

    I want to punch you right in the face. Read your bible, Jesus was the best thing to ever happen to us.

    • EvolutionKills

      Apparently, you need to go back and read yours and not simply cherry-pick the stuff your Pastor talks about on Sundays.

  • Ethan

    Adam, and some of the atheist commentors, I am sorry for the level of belligerence you have received from “Christians” from stating your objections (although, they are probably offended by your no-so-subtle jabs at their faith). Each individual should be given a chance to be heard, and likewise a rebuttal should be afforded. To state it plainly, I am a Christian. At times I share your sentiment for how things have played out. It seems to me that god is the evil one. Such wretched things have been allowed. But ultimately how we perceive things, all things, is entirely affected by our assumptions and presuppositions. Making it rather difficult to have discussions without laying out all of them before proceeding.

    I’ll give you the best argument against Christianity.

    (forgive the caps, couldn’t use italics)
    I wish to contend with, what I wish all Christians would recognize as, the ONLY argument for Christianity. IF, Jesus did exist. IF, he was crucified. IF, he was resurrected (supernatural event). THEN, there is a (supernatural) god. AND, because Jesus proclaimed, obviously, the Christian god, then Christianity is true.

    This is, first and foremost, a historical argument. Jesus’ existence and crucifixion have already been (begrudgingly) accepted by the (scholarly) atheist community as a whole (of course, with some exceptions). Even the poster child for atheism, Richard Dawkins, has allowed it (even though it shouldn’t matter, because he’s a biologist, not a historian). What is obviously rejected is the notion of his resurrection. Fine. I can understand the hesitance. This is where (I would argue) a tiny amount of faith is necessary. There are shelves of books that give very persuasive arguments supporting it must have happened. I would also say that if you could disprove the resurrection, that is all that would be necessary to make the walls of Christianity come crumbling down.

    But again, here is where assumptions and presuppositions play the largest role in this discussion. Unless you can disprove there was no such resurrection then there is little point in trying to disprove Christianity. If the resurrection really happened, then Jesus was telling the truth. If Jesus was telling the truth, then the Christian god exists. If the Christian god exists it makes little difference HOW we feel about what has happened/ what he has allowed. They happened. For whatever reasons, he allowed it.

    The argument you have proposed is, curiously, a purely philosophical argument. Philosophy is certainly necessary in the discussion, but the Christian god is unshakably intertwined with history (as made clear by his opponents). History is where the argument should start, and philosophy is where the argument should finish (at least for individual understanding).

    Thank you for your video, which has sparked interest in this category of discussion.

    Blessings!

    Ethan

    • EvolutionKills

      Little faith? Really? Resurrection from the dead, in defiance of all known laws and rules that dictate how reality operates, and for which we have no evidence for; requires only a little faith? It only requires a ‘little’ faith to overcome a little incredulity, which stems from a lot of ignorance. The more you know about reality and how it works, the more you need to ignore to accept the resurrection; it conversely requires more faith the more you know and less faith the less you know. That should tell you something about the nature of your belief.

      Not only that, but the logic does not follow. Even if an actual resurrection had happened, that would not be enough evidence to support the existence of your god or that it approves of Christianity. Even assuming it happened, without any evidence, what is to stop someone from claiming that it was just aliens with advanced technology performing a social experiment on us? What’s to stop someone from claiming it was an evil god’s ply to deceive us into following him instead?

      The simple answer is the burden of proof, but here it bites you in the ass as well. It’s not the job of the skeptic to disprove the resurrection of Jesus, it is the burden of one claiming that it actually happened to provide evidence that it did in fact happen. We do not need to disprove the resurrection, you need to prove it; you do not get to unilaterally swap the burden of proof because it’s convenient for you. If we allowed that, then Mormonism is true unless you can prove that Joseph Smith wasn’t visited by the angle Moroni, and Islam is true unless you can prove that Muhammad wasn’t visited by the angel Gabriel. See how that works?

      Philosophy is not where the argument ends. The argument ends with evidence, for which you have none as of yet.

      • Andy

        if you dont think that christians have evidence, you aren’t looking very hard,

        • EvolutionKills

          Oh please, do tell? If you think that anonymous and contradictory propaganda written decades after the supposed events by non-eyewitnesses constitutes evidence, you’re an idiot. If you think that yours or anyone elses personal subjective ‘experience’ of the Jesus/god/holy-spirit is evidence, then you don’t have a fucking clue what evidence is.

          But please, if you have some real objectively verifiable, repeatable, testable, peer-reviewed evidence in support of your version of your magical sky-daddy; by all means, let me know what it is.

          But I’m not keeping my hopes up…

  • kendall7858

    Decide to arrange for something other than yourself to exist

    In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth. And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    This was the state of things before God’s creative intelligence moved on the material realm we call earth. This doesn’t mean that there were not created beings in existence in the spiritual dimension. There were. There was the host of heaven. The “host of heaven (Hebrew = saba/tsaba)” translates army of the skies.

    Heavenly bodies (stars and material objects of cosmology)

    Heavenly
    beings (Cherubim, seraphs, archangels and princes all play a part in the redemption of man)

    As we can see, the seeds of our destruction and redemption were both
    present from the very beginning. It is interesting that darkness was
    present in the natural state of affairs. We can see that there was
    cosmological reality before the earth existed and the natural state
    of things was darkness, which was upon the face of the deep. Although there is a mystical air to the heavenly beings, we know that there were created beings predating Genesis. Since there were no humans present, these created mystical spirit beings most often are relegated to fables, but the bible makes it certain that they do exist. (Psalm 8:5, Matthew 22:30)

    “And God said, Let there be light: and there was light. And God saw the
    light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
    And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And
    the evening and the morning were the first day.

    And God said, Let there be firmament in the midst of the waters, and let
    it divide the waters from the waters. And God made the firmament, and
    divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters
    which were above the firmament: and it was so. And God called the
    firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second
    day.”

    Theistic evolution ascribes characters of death and sin to the creator. To do so is a lie. God is good, righteous, and holy. To ascribe traits to
    God which rightfully belong to Satan and his fallen spirit beings is
    a total misrepresentation of the creator. It is a rebellious deception that results from faulty discernment and ultimately, documents our own fall later in the Genesis trial. It continues to be dangerous to attribute God to an evolutionary model in which he evolves along with creation. This is an error because God is immutable. He has always existed and will always exist. Jesus was God come in the flesh. He is referred to as the alpha and omega, the beginning and the end. The doctrine of the trinity is revealed in the Genesis account in Genesis 1:26:

    “And God said, Let us make man in our image (not the other way around), after our likeness, and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all
    the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the
    earth.”

    The use of the term “us” is the objective case of the pronoun “we”
    which would indicate a plurality of physical sentient beings. Therefore, we have biblical evidence for the trinity of Father, Son, and Holy Spirit from the very earliest book of the creation glory of God. There isn’t any mythical imagery ascribed to the word of God, and neither should there be unless God were evolving, changing along with creation itself. If a mythical imagery hypothesis were true, then reading holy scripture in any manner other than a written historical account undermines everything that can be observed through our limited sensory abilities. Unfortunately, we don’t come garnished with a truth sensor. If we had such detectors affixed from birth, none of the calamity that follows the genesis prequel would have been written and religion born from a universality of the death act would be unnecessary. Alas, the word of God is as insufficient for many today as it was for our most primordial ancestors and history delivers itself unto cyclical repetitious outcomes which cannot be escaped. Unfortunately, depravity ensues.

    The concept of sin is inconsequential in evolutionary modalities and
    rather than defining a deity, we could relegate God to the void concept described in the opening chapter of His word. I know that the atheist is disparaging of God. The atheist is, by necessity, desperately clinging to the hope that a sin nature can not exist because God himself can not exist and vice versa. It boils down to us becoming comfy cozy with our wickedness and moreover, purloins practically anything that we do. We still need to be very careful that we judge righteously or we perpetually risk missing all opportunity to discern our humanity in accordance to tradition. The disparagement of God by the atheist further denigrates the deity of Christendom and cuts one off from all hope of salvation from eternal death. Rather than being ever vigilant of our relational position
    with God in regard to our behavior, we let ourselves off the hook. Once this error profligates, can total depravity and anarchy be far behind?

    The doctrines of creation and evolution are so strongly divergent that
    reconciliation is totally impossible. The theistic evolutionists attempt to integrate the two doctrines; however such syncretism reduces the message of the Bible to insignificance. The conclusion is inevitable: There is no support for theistic evolution in the Bible.

    Creation of Lucifer

    Did God create a being by the name of Lucifer with full knowledge that this being will betray him and ultimately cause an infinite amount of suffering unnecessarily?

    We can answer in the affirmative to the first part of the question because God knows his creation better than creation knows itself. God knew us when we were in the womb and even before he made us, he knew us (Isaiah 44:24). God is omniscient, meaning he is all knowing. God is an eternal conscious presence in creation and wants fellowship with us that he might be glorified. God is good, kind, merciful, and just. Moreover, he has so much charity that he sent his only son into this world. His son Jesus loved us so much that he laid down his perfect life for us, that we might become known to God through him. Through the incarnation of God in Jesus Christ, our heavenly Father learned what it was like to be human. Jesus suffered the trails of life, tempted in every way that we are, yet without sin. I am a father, and the thought of sacrificing my son’s
    life for perfect strangers is beyond my comprehension as a finite imperfect being. What more could we hope from him? Is there any sacrifice greater that would convey the depths of his love for us? These are not rhetorical questions. The answer is a firm and substantive, “NO”. So, before we blame God for our sin, let us examine ourselves to see if we are in the faith. How do we test faith, do you say? By the testimony of God’s spirit that beareth witness with our spirit, that is how. Before, we can be filled with God’s presence in our lives, we must believe that he IS and that he is a re warder of those who diligently seek him. If we don’t even seek God, then we certainly will never find him. So, yes, God knew
    Lucifer and fallen humanity would betray him before we actually committed the treason. We continue in concupiscence to this day. Indeed, we are becoming more culpable with each passing minute.

    With regard to the question of unnecessary suffering, the blame lies squarely with humanity through Luciferian dissimulation. Lucifer’s name means “light bearer”. He is the father of lies and he has been a murderer from the very beginning. We have to be very careful unto whom we assign blame because it was through Satan that sin and death entered into the world via Adamic transgression. It was not God’s intention to have enmity with us. Rather, he intended for us to live in perfect harmonious worship toward him for all time. God could have destroyed Satan’s uprising, instantly, when we rebelled. He didn’t, however, because our heavenly Father is, by his very nature, kind, perfectly holy, and long suffering. He did not destroy us, although he would have been perfectly justified in doing so. Quite the contrary, not only does he not destroy us for our disobedience, but he makes continuous intercessory provision that we might be restored to the kingdom of God offered by the life example of Jesus of Nazareth. Praise God for his merciful loving kindness toward us, in that while we were yet
    sinners, Christ died for us!

    A Place Called Hell

    Allow an unfathomably horrific dimension of existence known as ‘hell’ to emerge created by yourself or perhaps Lucifer and allow that dimension to continue existing

    Yes, God created everything and there is a place in the center of the terrestrial called hell, a place of unfathomable suffering and loss. Who can know it? This planet is a prison and the just fruits of any life sown in discord and violent propensity will be punishment in a sequestered realm
    devoid of life. Hell is a horrible state of eternal death and damnation from which there is no escape. It is a place of unspeakably tormented conscious existence that was prepared for Satan and his fallen angelic hobnobbers. God did not create man for this place and it is not God’s desire that any of us end up there. God forbid! No, hell is a destination of conscious choice. Just as terrestrial prisons are designed as places of sequestration in order to protect the greater good, such is hell. God is indescribably holy and as a holy sentient entity, God can not tolerate sin in his presence. He can not even view sin, such is his inimitable highness in the cosmic realm. Man chooses hell. God doesn’t condemn anyone. Satan is the accuser. He is the one who defames both man and God. His name is unspeakable, but he is also known as Beelzebub, Apollyon, and Abaddon. Whatever name he goes by, he is the god of this world and he is the purveyor of untold murderous suffering through deception across all time. He is the son of perdition and he comes to deceive, kill, and destroy everything that is good. He despoils as a
    strongman and he simply will not quit until every living soul is dead. He hates us and he hates God. His spirit is the spirit of anti-Christ and this spirit has been in the world since the opening genesis of man on the earth. As God is merciful, satan is merciless. As God is long suffering, satan is petulant. As God loves, so satan hates. He is a merciless destroyer and his mission is to drag as many souls as he can to perdition and beyond. As bad as hell is, there is a worse destiny to be evidentually suffered. The final repository for the unrepentant fallen ones is the Lake of Fire depicted in the biblical canon of the Revelation of Saint John the Divine. It is a horrifically dreadful place of unspeakable pain where “their worm dieth not and the flames are not quenched”. Whatever bad things befall us in life, nothing can compare to the place of “weeping and wailing and gnashing of teeth” Do anything to avoid
    this fate. Flee from sin to the arms of Jesus while there is still a chance. Do anything to avoid the fate of prison planet earth. It should be with untoward solemn accord that we beseech the merciful gracious care of our creator God. He loves us. He sent his son to die for us and He doesn’t want anyone to suffer the fate of the most dreaded existence in the universe. Seek God with all your heart and Repent!

  • kendall7858

    Create objective unchanging moral prescriptions and base them upon whatever your nature happens to be and then label any action or thought contrary to these standards ‘sin’.

    We need to approach the creation of the objective moral prescriptions question first. First of all, what is law? Is law an objective unchanging moral prescription? We need to have a working definition of the law. A law is a system of rules and guidelines which are enforced through social institutions to govern behavior. Laws can be instituted through
    legislative action or by executive decree. Historically, religious laws played a role in society and influenced secular matters. They were not based on whatever our nature’s happen to be, because they derive from God, not man. Judo-christian societies of the west bequeath religious laws through an oral and written tradition. Originally, heritable law was passed down from generation to generation by an oral record, but as societies evolved from hunter/gatherer groups to more agriculturally oriented economies, the law came to us by way of the Torah which are the written works of the Hebrew bible or old testament. In the Torah were the first five books of the bible from Genesis to Deuteronomy. These first five books of the old testament canon contain what is known as the law of Moses. Within these books are 613 laws revealed to Moses by God,
    governing everything from dietary restrictions to health customs and
    sexual morality.

    Now that we have a working definition of the law, we can define behavioral standards and the intransigent nature of humanity toward these standards, resulting in sin. As much as we would like to banter back and forth about the arbitrary nature of our definition of the law, we will never be able to deny the fact of one thing. We all die. We all are baptized into death. This is not arbitrary It is a substantive fact of life. If
    we live in this temporal existence long enough, we will all drink of the same cup of God’s wrath, the same cup from which the Son of man
    drank. Jesus had to die for through him, God could experience every
    dot and tittle of what it is like to be human. And just as God suffered through the passion of Jesus Christ, God became able to identify with our plight. He gave us a conscience. However, human conscience has been defiled by treachery. For in this conscience are planted the seeds of temptation and once we are tempted, we lust because we are flesh and blood. When we lust, we will soon bring forth it’s fruit for the fruit of lust is sin, and once sin ripens in our members, it brings forth death. This is a law unto itself.

    Until the law of Moses, sin was in the world , inherited from our common ancestor, Adam. However, sin was not imputed until the law because the law defines our transgression. And just as the law came to define sin through one’s transgression, so that if through Adam’s transgression came sin, then through imputed righteousness the free gift of grace comes through Christ. Just as by one man death reigned, so by another man, imputed righteousness may give life everlasting. Therefore, the
    penalty of sin is death. This law is a law unto itself and moreover, a law from which all other laws derive. We may rejoice in the knowledge that through one man judgement came upon us all because our members yield to sin, even so the penalty of this judgement became paid in full. This is not arbitrary because all of us have a conscience and all are able to feel the guilt of our transgression. Let us reason together, for the law of Moses is also a law unto itself because by one man came death to us all, yet by another man, we have renewed access to the Father who is glorified in his son.

    Be sure to include in these moral prescriptions edits for social and psychological health such as encouragement to beat ones children with a rod.

    We need a healthy respect for authority outside of ourselves, an authority bigger than we are from whence, reverence, awe, and consternation are born within our bodily conscience. If we stand in awe of something, we will sin not. We need to find fault with the argued premise of the a fore-mentioned statement that beating one’s children with a rod damages the child’s psychological health. If applied properly, and in love, physical chastening can add a healthy balance to our consciousness in that it defines limits to unacceptable behaviors. It can prevent self-loathing and self-pity. We need to be aware that a defiled
    conscience is the potential result of sin, of which self-pity and self-loathing are; such are sin. Of course, we need to balance it with an encouragement that should be the norm. But when testing authority to the point of encroachment of civil boundaries, justice demands swift reproach before we are beguiled. Without permissible boundaries, each man does that which is right in his own eyes and who is the beholder through which the “right” visage is foreseen. Mutual respect and submission are the demands of a peaceful coexistence. Although we shouldn’t encourage people to ABUSE their children, we shouldn’t rule out the rod. It is a faulty premise that we assume that any use of the rod is abusive. It is most assuredly not abuse.

    Be sure to include in these moral prescriptions edits for social and psychological health such as permission to buy and sell slaves and will them as property to ones children for life.

    We can agree on this premise (from whence it came, I do not know) that slavery is sin. We fought a civil war over this issue and God righteously judged us in blood. Both sides suffered for tolerance of the institution slavery. We can most assuredly agree that bondage is sin.

    Having said this, we need to be careful about equating bondage to slavery and being bonded in servitude. We must always remember that the Son of man came willingly to this world as a meek and lowly servant to his heavenly Father. God’s holy written word mentions only two references to slaves, but has a whole host of references to servants. A servant is somebody who serves another: an employee who serves somebody else, especially an employee hired to do household tasks or be a personal attendant to somebody. A slave, on the other hand is in a system under which people are treated as property to be bought and sold, and are forced, against their will, to work with rigor. Secants (workers) submit to their masters (bosses) willingly as a hope, mete for the masters use. The children of Israel in Egypt, under Pharaoh, were in hardship for centuries being made to work under impossible conditions of humanity. There is a BIG difference. Women, for example, should be keepers at home, chaste and willing to serve their husbands. Women are to bear children and raise their families in submission to the authority of their husbands. Husbands are to love their wives, just as Jesus loves the church and laid down his life in sacrifice that we all
    might serve one another in loving-kindness. So, we must carefully make this distinction for it is important to the structure of a peaceful society.

    Be sure to include in these moral prescriptions edits for social and psychological health such as requirement that women not be allowed to teach or have authority over men.

    We have already discussed this, but we must realize that there is much distortion about this in modern civil discourse. We should realize that the bible says that women are “the weaker vessel”. They are more emotional than men and they do not discern spiritual matters by rightly judging
    intellectually. Men are more rational than woman, who think more in
    terms of the heart. Thinking in terms of the heart is well and good with respect to raising children, but women need to subject themselves to men in the home and in spiritual matters. We shouldn’t look at this as heresy, for it is the way God created men and women. We should be aware that women ruling over men is a corruption of the natural order of creation. Woman was made from man; man was not made from woman. Just as men must submit to Christ and God, women should ideally submit to men. This is the natural order of things.

    Be sure to include in these moral prescriptions edits for social and psychological health such as, of course, the instruction to kill anyone who expresses interest in worshiping other gods.

    We need to understand that killing is not the same as murdering. For example, if one’s own life is threatened we have a right, indeed we have a duty to put evil away from us. We need to be careful that we acknowledge that “Thou shalt not kill” has been mistranslated and it actually translates as “Thou shalt not murder”. Is there a difference between killing in war than killing for vindication or malicious contrivance? Is there a difference in killing if one is the victim of an unprovoked attack and with malice plotting to premeditate murdering someone? These contrasts should elucidate how God views sin. Murder, we can see is clearly different than killing evil wicked men who are trying to exterminate us with malice. The key distinction is with malice. We have to understand that in the old testament, the children of
    Israel encountered pagan idolatry in many of the lands of Canaan.
    Some of the customs of these idolatrous peoples consisted of burning
    their own children in sacrifice to pagan Gods. Idolatry and pagan
    violence are a wicked and sinful hate-inspired malady. So, when the
    children if Israel encountered this wickedness in the old testament,
    they indeed, were commanded by God to kill the idolators and
    murderers. There is not any inconsistency here. God hates evil and will lay waste to it with destruction. The wicked plant the seeds of their own destruction in their sin. It is just the way it is and, as we see in the 20th century that wicked and evil peoples still require just killing. We need to be careful that we don’t call evil good and call good evil. For this, God will judge us and bring calamity upon us

    Ken Johnson

  • kendall7858

    Adam:

    We need to be careful about falling into foolishness. I am trying to fallow you arguments (see my other posts). However, I can’t even formulate some of the questions that appear in the various sections of your complaints. You definitely have a problem with God, I get that, but your points are very vague.

    Ken Johnson

  • kendall7858

    A Physical Universe

    Design a physical universe, planets, animals and vegetation all with the appearance of age.

    Let’s assume that the question here is why are the created organisms in the fossil record so much older than creationists believe they are. We have to be careful of falling into the trap of drawing faulty conclusions based
    on very big presumptions. The stakes are high and we may find
    ourselves in the treacherous position of trying to prove a negative
    rather than affirming the truth.

    The primary flaw in the argument of the question of the appearance of age is the means by which we arrive at the age in order to support the heresy of Darwinian evolution. All of the dating methods for assessing the age
    of fossils in our geologic record rely on isotopic decay, specifically in the case of radiocarbon dating, the spontaneous decay of radioactive carbon 14 to nonradioactive carbon 12. Let’s look at some of the arguments. First of all, it is a fact that if we send a sample for radiocarbon dating to different laboratories, we will get extremely variable assessments of the age of a particular find. This is a really big flaw because the scientific method requires that results be reproducible. Radiocarbon dates are not reproducible. So, at the outset, we can see that there are problems in assigning any age to any particular artifact by radiocarbon dating. Another problem is that we simply were not there concurrent with the contemplated
    time. We need to look at some other problems with specific details of
    dating methodologies, but we are already on shaky ground in the
    assumption of very old dates recovered from fossilized materials.

    Radioactive carbon is absorbed by living organisms throughout their entire life. When the organism dies that absorption stops and the radioactive carbon begins to break down. Because this break down occurs at a known rate it is theoretically possible to compare the amount of regular carbon
    and the amount of radioactive carbon in an artifact, thus estimating just how long an organism has been dead. Theoretically it sound like we have a slam dunk. However, as someone once said, truth is often stranger than fiction and if something sounds to good to be true, it usually isn’t.

    There are a list of assumptions that make the certainty of any radiocarbon date dubious. There is little beyond the rate of decay of carbon 14 to carbon 12 that can be scientifically measured. We do know that carbon 14
    decays to carbon 12. The problem in assigning historical dates to
    organic compounds in organisms is that we do not know how much carbon 14 and carbon 12 was originally sequestered within the organism when it died. Prima facia evidence flaws the historical dating since as
    we stated before, we were not there. Secondly, has the environment
    contaminated our sample over time? It is highly likely that contamination exists, especially over the thousands of millenia presumed in any radiometric date obtained. Another ex post facto assertion is that the ratio of radioactive carbon 14 to its non radioactive cousin has remained the same as it is measured in today’s environment. We know that this is, in fact, false because climate change has been shown to alter this ratio furtively.

    In conclusion, radiocarbon dates are saddled with uncontrolled experimental variations that give speculative dates for recovered artifacts that are unreliable, at best, and may arguably support the creationist model of existence equivocally to the Darwinian one. We know that the godless are desperate for if they acknowledge the least tittle of doubt, they
    find themselves be smitten with responsibility and therefore, accountable to our heavenly Father. Therefore, let us continue to reason among ourselves for we all want to experience truth.

    Biological Flaws, Redundancies, and Over complications

    Be sure to include in your creation biological flaws redundancies and over-complications that appear as if they were the product of blind cumulative processes, perhaps a urinary tract that runs straight through the prostate gland or an unnecessary appendix prone to inflation and rupturing, or maybe a respiratory and digestive system forced to share the same plumbing, (these are just a few working ideas).

    Appearances are deceiving or so goes the old proverb. So it is with biological flaws, redundancies, and over-complications. I am amazed at the wisdom of the creator God to conceive a witness to the way things are. Often, we simply don’t perceive a reason for the way things are because God is omniscient and we never will be. We are not Gods despite the new age blasphemies intimating that we are all gods. If we look at the superficial factual observations in isolation, we can’t possibly discern the reasons behind worldly observations. The human appendix, for example, seems to us to be a vestigial remnant left over from some hypothetical shared common ancestor when the tree of life bifurcated. The other path that led to ruminant mammals went on a separate journey and the appendix became part of the apparatus that allows cows and other “cud chewers” to digest the cellulose walls of plant cells. We can’t digest this cellulose, so in men the appendix wasn’t needed and it is vestigial. This is a superficial analysis and on the surface makes perfect sense. It is only when we take a microscope and look at the appendix on a microscopic level that we see the purpose. When we look at the appendix magnified 500 times we begin to notice that the cells in the appendix are similar to the cells of lymph nodes called “lymphocytes”. Since these cells are similar to cells in other tissues that function in immunity, we can make the transitive deduction that the appendix is involved in protecting people from
    infection. We see things at a human level, whereas God sees things
    on grander scale than people do. God sees on a Godly level. The Godly level, as in this example, has nothing to do with flaws, redundancies, or over complication. In fact, when we have the broader understanding, we see divine wisdom in creation. God reveals himself to his creation by
    his creation. Creation is much wiser than we think at first glance.

    The Garden

    Create a garden with a tree in it bearing fruit that when eaten provides knowledge of your objective moral standards. and create two sentient cognitive beings without knowledge or awareness of these standards and instruct them not to eat from the tree which would enlighten them (in other words, arrange it so that only AFTER they eat from the tree are they capable of understanding that doing so was a violation of objective moral
    standards).

    We need to be respectful toward the Lord God and not ascribe to him any
    wicked way. God is just, fair, kind, and charitable. He cannot sin and he cannot lie. If he says things are to be done a certain way, then we had best defer to his judgment about the matter and obey him. Adam and Eve were perfectly capable of making a decision. The issue in creation has nothing to do with judging or making a decision other than a decision to be obedient to the truth. It was a question of trust and about being obedient to what God had said about something. It is not about morality. It is about obedience. God told the two sentient beings that they would die if they ate from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. God didn’t strike them dead because he was vindictive. God forbid! He told them not to do something to protect them from a truth. His wisdom can be totally relied upon because God cannot lie. On the other hand satan is incapable of the truth, because the truth is not in him. We have a choice and that choice is not about enlightenment at all. Quite to the contrary, our choice has always been about whom are we going to believe? Whom are we going to follow? The path of enlightenment is the straight and narrow path to God through his beloved son. Whom can we trust? God is perfectly worthy of our trust.

    Warnings

    Warn these cognitive beings that they will undoubtedly die if they eat from this tree, but don’t follow through if they do, then endow a reptile with vocal cords, lips or some other means of speaking audibly to your cognitive beings enabling it to make a convincing case to one of them for
    eating from the tree. Do not prevent this or intervene.

    We need to realize that the serpent was merely used by a spirit being
    (satan) to confuse the issue and that all of the of creation was cursed as a result. We were originally conformed to the perfection of God and it’s interesting that the curse did not take place immediately. Adam and Eve undoubtedly did die after the rebellious event of the garden, just as all through Adam have inherited death. Before, the flood in Noah’s day, men not only lived after the fall, but lived very long lives (up to 900 years). Death came upon men gradually but inevitably because God said this would happen, and God cannot lie. We should be forever conscious of the fact that God is merciful, even in his judgment on sin. The error that led to our disobedience rests solely with ourselves. Just as God’s holy and
    precious word warns us of the consequences of sin, God directly warned us in the beginning. Warnings are thus presented in a non-egregious fashion so that we will have no excuse when we are judged. We always try to shift the blame as evidenced by Adam and Eve. Adam blamed Eve for his transgression and Eve tried to shift the blame to the serpent. God’s grace came abundantly on mankind and we must always be thankful for his charity, righteously perfected in holiness through his beloved son. The Son ship of Jesus Christ heralds the depths of God’s love for us and he is perfectly right in everything he does. Man is foolish in his folly of trying to parlay guilt to external circumstance. It will never work because the
    penalty for our transgression is death. We need to thank the Lord for his eternal blessings to us, paying the penalty that we might be reconciled to the truth. We are bought with a price and that price is doing the works of the law. None of us are able to keep the commandments of God ourselves. We cannot keep God’s holy law any more than Adam and Eve could perfectly obey God’s command in their day.

    Reproducing and Multiplying

    Now by this point make sure your cognitive beings have been equipped for reproducing themselves and multiplying, and because one of them has sinned, arrange that every single one of their descendants until the end of
    time will be born with an inherited sinful nature, defaulting in a future of everlasting torment. Do not by any means allow each of them to be born with a clean slate and the capacity for living a sin-free life if they desire as you did with your first two prototypes.

    We need to realize and reaffirm the truth that Adam fell out of fellowship
    with God when he disobeyed God’s intended order. Just as God promised
    in Adam’s generation, death has come to dwell in man, even in them
    that had not sinned in a like manner after Adam’s transgression. However, the pattern of sin has remained the same. We entertain a thought that causes us to be tempted. Once tempted, we lust and are overcome by the flesh leading to sin. Once we choose to disobey, sin brings forth death. Through one man’s sin, many are dead. We are born in a state of innocence and with a clean slate. However, it is not long after our birth that the world discourages each of us and we become despoiled by our passions. Death is the fruit of this disparagement as we learn to lose our faith, ever mindful of treachery around us. What a tragedy that all men sin and fall short of the glory of God for this was never intended.

    We are brought to nothing by our own desires, because we live in a spiritual dimension of torment, thus opening a door unto temptation. Jesus was tempted by the devil just as Adam and Eve, yet he was without sin. Jesus broke the power of temptation and through him we have a legal right to reclaim our lives. He gives us authority to become clean in a world of filth and debased morality. We are born into this world, but we are not to be of this world, nor should we be conformed to it, for he who is in us is greater than anything in the world. We need to bridle our tongue and be affirming by giving hope to those who come across our way. We have promises. We need to be aware of the dialectic for God cannot lie, but only that wicked one, for he is the father of lies. The truth is simply not in him. If we discern the spiritual, we can resist the temptation, for temptation is always a lie from the spirit world. The things of this world are idols to be discerned and avoided because we can renounce all hatred, anger, revenge and bitterness. We have the power to turn away from the lie through the power of obedience to the truth. Know thy God and be sure of him, for he loved us before we loved him. We must constantly be reminded of the truth by the daily renewing of our minds to the things of God, for the mysteries of God become a law unto themselves, testifying to the almighty power of God’s majesty. We are not in bondage to a spiritual
    default of torment for love casteth out fear, and no matter how oppressed we feel, we can be resurrected by the power of the Holy Ghost of God. Amen.

    Ken Johnson

    • EvolutionKills

      Nice copy-pasta job. Where did you steal that bullshit from, Answers in Genesis?

  • Andy

    I’m sorry, but this all seems downright stupid and I hope it’s not your A-game. Give me some hard evidence, some facts, something academic or even vaguely intellectual, and then maybe you can call it an argument. I like to keep informed from a few different sides, but this kind of thing just isn’t helpful. Stop being a Dawkins.

    • EvolutionKills

      Evidence? It’s a critique of what is actually written in the Bible dumbass. He just presents it as a checklist without all of the bullshit fluff and filler, cutting it down to get to what is actually going on; to highlight the absurdity of it all. It’s a wonderful piece of reductio ad absurdum, because he’s entirely accurate in his critique of what the Bible states.

      If that is you ‘A-game’, you’re an idiot that entirely missed the point.

  • Sophie

    I seriously feel sick right now. How someone could have such a messed up impression of God is beyond me. I’m going to pray for you, and hope that you find the Lord. You are going about this so wrong, you have no idea. And you are putting your deranged version of God online for everyone to see. You could affect another persons religious views, as well as mess up your own even more. That is NOT OK. I feel bad for you. Do me a favor and go see all of these Christian movies coming out; Son of God, Noah, God’s Not Dead, etc., and afterword ask yourself about how true this post really is. I’m sorry that you see Christianity from such a strange view, and I hope that that view changes for the better soon.

    • EvolutionKills

      No, all he is doing is restating exactly what happens in the Bible just without all of the fluff and bullshit filler that obfuscates what the book says and what god supposedly does. It’s not strange at all to an outsider, but you clearly are unable to see it without rose-tinted glasses. Had this video been aimed at Muhammad and Islam, you’d agree with him I’m sure, but you lack the perspective to see your own cult from the outside.

      This is how Christianity and your God look like from the outside. Yes, it really is that crazy. No, your personal appeals to emotions and watching Christian propaganda doesn’t change that.

      Have you even read the Bible? If you have, then you cannot argue that what he says is not accurate; because it is accurate based on what the Bible actual says. And you’d know that if you actually read the damn book.

  • JasperTheDunkinDonutsGuys

    #2 has always been my #1 argument.

  • Anonymous

    Do you suggest that nothing created everything? I’m confused.Basically that’s atheism,correct me if I’m wrong.

    • EvolutionKills

      You are wrong.

      Atheism is simply a lack of belief in gods.

      That’s it.

      As for the cosmos, the questions you asked is fundamentally flawed; because it assumes the universe was in fact ‘created’ or had a ‘beginning’. The universe may have been created, it may have a beginning, or it may be eternal. It may be the only one, or it may be one of many or even infinite other universes. We can trace our own universe bag to the Big Bang, but what happens ‘before’ that (while ignoring how nonsensical it is to posit anything happening before the creation of temporal time itself) is anyone’s guess; and it perplexes the smartest people alive. The best, most honest answer we currently have is “I don’t know”.

      And any religion that claims to know, is lying to you.

  • I stand with my God

    There is no checkmate! You forgot about the many things that the Bible does give us. For example, about 2500 prophecies, in which about 2000 have been completed.

    And that’s not Christianity! First off, that was not just any serpent. That was Satan. Now take for granted, God Almighty did create Satan. Why God would do this, when He knew Satan would turn his back on Him is still a mystery to me. But the thing is, God has a plan. We as mortal men don’t know what it is yet, but when the Rapture comes, God’s plan will hopefully become clear to us.

    About Heaven and Hell… there is no mention about Hell in the Bible at all. Anywhere. So to say that billions and billions of souls being torched in Hell, is wrong. Hell was created by man, to probably scare unbelievers into becoming believers.

    There is however, mention about Heaven. I’m not implying that everyone goes to Heaven either.

    Adam, in this article you also mentioned that not everyone who is good goes to Heaven. This is why. According to the Bible, you must believe in Christ Jesus. Only through Him will you be able to go to Heaven. You have to have the Holy Spirit in you. You can’t just be religious, you have to believe, and trust God. Trust in Him with your heart and spirit.

    God choice you. Each and every one of you. But can you choose Him?
    I pray for you Adam, and those who are lost. I pray that one day you will find God, and that one day you will be able to trust in Him.

    “For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life.” ~John 3:16

    • EvolutionKills

      Fuck you.

      Your rebuttal is “I don’t know, therefore God”. Do you even realize how stupid that sounds to somebody who doesn’t already buy into your cult?

      2500 prophecies? Bullshit. I want a list of all 2500, and the specifics about how the next 500 will supposedly play out. Because your god has a real shitty record with knowing anything beyond human guesswork, and is demonstrably false every time he makes a specific prediction (like the destruction of Tyre, the destruction of Egypt, the triumph of Judah, the Nile river will dry up, etc.). He also forgot to tell us about germs and parasite, the knowledge of which would have eased the suffering and saved the lives of billions throughout history. But the creators of the Bible didn’t know about microorganism, and that is precisely why your god doesn’t know about them either. Your god is just as stupefyingly ignorant as the bronze age goat-herders that created him.

      Also, the serpent in Eden was never Satan; nothing in Jewish tradition or the Tanakh indicates this. It is a retcon created by the authors of Revelations, nothing more. Fortunately there is just as much evidence for the existence of Satan as their is for your god (which is absolutely nothing).

      Hell however was in the bible, and was greatly influenced by the Greek concept of Hades. Hell is however missing from the Jewish tradition, which had a land of the dead called Sheol that lacked the fire, brimstone, and eternal torture. The god of the Old Testament was a right bastard, but he never threatened to punish the dead. It’s only after the advent of Jesus that we get threats of everlasting pain and suffering for not falling in line.

      It’s shocking just how little you Christians know about your own fucking faith. It’s disgraceful really, especially in the modern information age. Is it any wonder that the non-believers and atheists know more about Christianity than the Christians do themselves?

      Ever stop to wonder if that’s the reason why they are atheists?

      Of course you didn’t.

  • Ryan P.

    To all the athiests getting upset at these fools just keep one thing in mind. They continually say this is so wrong and such ignorance and they could tell you line by line how every single thing here is wrong…. And then they don’t. Because they can’t. Because this is accurate and these idiots know nothing about their own religion or it’s history. They just regurgitate what they have been told by some other fool who was misinformed by a long list of fools on Sunday. There is a word for these people. Ignorant. Or delusional if you prefer. The facts speak for themselves. While all the nutty Christians just sit there and say its wrong and giving nothing to back up their position. Just their uninformed opinions. You’re all dumb. And I’m not going to apologize to this level of stupidity. Read a fucking book. Oh, and try reading your bibles too. Because most of this is right there in black and white as you sit here ignorantly calling this lies. Morons…

  • Arseeus
  • Arseeus

    Top Ten Signs You’re a Fundamentalist Christian

    10 – You vigorously deny the existence of thousands of gods claimed by other religions, but feel outraged when someone denies the existence of yours.

    9 – You feel insulted and “dehumanized” when scientists say that people evolved from other life forms, but you have no problem with the Biblical claim that we were created from dirt.

    8 – You laugh at polytheists, but you have no problem believing in a Triune God.

    7 – Your face turns purple when you hear of the “atrocities” attributed to Allah, but you don’t even flinch when hearing about how God/Jehovah slaughtered all the babies of Egypt in “Exodus” and ordered the elimination of entire ethnic groups in “Joshua” including women, children, and trees!

    6 – You laugh at Hindu beliefs that deify humans, and Greek claims about gods sleeping with women, but you have no problem believing that the Holy Spirit impregnated Mary, who then gave birth to a man-god who got killed, came back to life and then ascended into the sky.

    5 – You are willing to spend your life looking for little loopholes in the scientifically established age of Earth (few billion years), but you find nothing wrong with believing dates recorded by Bronze Age tribesmen sitting in their tents and guessing that Earth is a few generations old.

    4 – You believe that the entire population of this planet with the exception of those who share your beliefs — though excluding those in all rival sects – will spend Eternity in an infinite Hell of Suffering. And yet consider your religion the most “tolerant” and “loving.”

    3 – While modern science, history, geology, biology, and physics have failed to convince you otherwise, some idiot rolling around on the floor speaking in “tongues” may be all the evidence you need to “prove” Christianity.

    2 – You define 0.01% as a “high success rate” when it comes to answered prayers. You consider that to be evidence that prayer works. And you think that the remaining 99.99% FAILURE was simply the will of God.

    1 – You actually know a lot less than many atheists and agnostics do about the Bible, Christianity, and church history – but still call yourself a Christian.

  • sierra

    At this point, it seems as if those who claim to be atheist will do so regardless of the proof of God. Therefore to all of you, I desperately ask of you to live the life of evolution, which is one without meaning. Tell me how to goes and how far you get. Disregard any of the principles of God including LOVE and let me know how it goes for you.

    • Tor Sverre Engen

      Show me a proof of god, please. Pick any of the 2500 gods awailable.
      I’m an atheist, and my life is far from meaningless. And I can live it without fear for what comes next.

      • sierra

        Myself and many other believers are proof of God existing. You asking me to show you proof is meaningless because you’re not willing to accept it. The problem is that just because you may not believe in God, does not mean that he does not exist. Secondly, please tell me why your life has purpose? Thirdly, why did you bring up fear? Also, maybe you need to reread what I wrote and apply whar I said about what God teaches about love and other things that can’t be explained by evolution. Do you not know that evolution according to Darwin happens without meaning? That is why I stated the part about meaning in my previous post. Maybe you need to reevaluate your life and your belief in evolution since you claim that your life is meaningful.Oh and by the way this website specifically talks about the christian God who is the same God of Judaism and to the Muslim religion. Therefore there’s no need for you to even mention the irrelevant and fake gods you mentioned.

        • Tor Sverre Engen

          Your believe is not proof of anything. People believed that the earth was flat….
          I enjoy every day, so there is a purpose.
          If you read the bible you will se that god is the biggest mass murderer i history. What did you say about love?
          When you understand why you dismiss all the other gods as fake, the you understand why I dismiss your imaginary friend as fake.

        • lindsay

          Why did he bring up fear? because that is the very basis of Christianity, and ALL religion. “It is a counterfeit love that is contingent on authority, punishment and reward. true love is respect and admiration, compassion and kindness, freely given by an healthy unafraid human being”. -Dan Barker, Losing faith in faith

  • sierra

    Darwin himself loved, which was the most meangful things in this world. Yet he tells people that everything happens without reason.

  • sierra

    And by the way, God existed before religion so stop trying to use Christianity to disprove God, since it depends on him. We learn this in science all the time, independent and dependent variables. Use your own scientic basic scientific knowledge.

  • Brian Chase

    When I was too young to even speak, my dad took me to the doctor to be vaccinated against various diseases. I’m sure at the time, from my perspective, all I perceived was that someone I loved and trusted handed me off to a complete stranger who stabbed me with a needle, hurt me and made me bleed. I don’t remember any of it, but I’m sure I would have felt betrayed and scared and not have understood what was happening or why.

    In terms of ability to comprehend his plans and intentions, I was far closer to my dad, than the brightest of us on earth will ever be to God. He even says in his Word “My ways are not your ways, my plans are not your plans”. We cannot hope to be able to understand all the nuances and aspects of a plan put together by a Being who is powerful and intelligent enough to merely speak the universe into existence.

    This 25 step attempt to do so mis-characterizes several attributes of God, but I conclude that was only because the author does not actually know Him, and it is easy to get facts wrong about people we don’t personally know.

    One thing that might help in understanding why God has done some of the things He has (but again we’ll never in this lifetime grasp His entire plan) is to see if we can discover a motive. Motives often explain otherwise inexplicable human actions and maybe that principle will help us here.

    So, why did God make us? And why did God apparently set us up to fail? And did God set us up to fail? It certainly looks that way doesn’t it?

    I believe God made us so that someone could love Him. But love requires volition, choice. If He made a creature that could do nothing but love Him, that would not really be love, because true love must be a choice. And the other choice is not to love Him. We express that choice by how we live our lives, either in obedience to Him or disobedience, but even the obedient do not measure up to the perfection He requires.

    So, because He is perfectly just, but also loving and merciful, He paid the price every person owes who lives or ever did. God died for us as a perfectly sinless man and paid the debt you and I owe for every sin we’ve ever committed and ever will.

    Ephesians says “His intent was that now, through the church the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.”

    And who are these rulers and authorities? They are among all the angels and spiritual beings God created. God created man to demonstrate something to these spirits, and finally, through the church, His point was finally made.

    First man was sinless and lived in paradise. Then man went his own way, and God let him do so, but cut off a great deal of His support. If man was going to go his own way, God would allow it but not help him do it. Thus he was kicked out of Eden, out of paradise. About 1,500 years later, having proved His first point, that doing things any way besides God’s gets very bad results, God destroyed humanity except for Noah and his family.

    So now, man had a second chance, but this time that chance came with a great object lesson of just what happens when we try to do it our way and not God’s way. So, round one was man’s way without man having a means of knowing the consequences, and round two was man’s way having just come out of a world steeped in the filth of those consequences. And as we can see today, man without God has fared no better during round 2.

    Ah, but in the midst of round 2, God did create a little side show, aka the nation of Israel, to be an example through history of what God would do for a people who would follow Him with all their hearts. And when they did, they prospered, and when they did not they suffered horribly, more so than other nations might have, because other nations merely did what Godless men do, but Israel deliberately rejected Him.

    And now we’re in round 3, where the church is the living example a body of humanity living for God, by His precepts and on His terms. Granted, we do it imperfectly and rely on His mercy and forgiveness every single day. I would not trust my best minute on this earth to make me right with God, only by what He did for me, as Jesus Christ on that cross, do I have any hope of salvation, but what He did was more than sufficient to pay for the most heinous acts of the most heinous man, for the Infinite suffered and died to provide infinite grace to finite men, if they will merely accept it.

    You suggest hell should not be eternal, or that perhaps there should be some other place for those who reject God to go. The bible says each man will be judged by the light he had, so hell will not be experienced in the same way by everyone. An no one will be punished more than he deserves, and I trust the Creator of Heaven, Hell, and the universe to justly mete that out.

    Some of it does seem unfair to me, I admit it. I freely admit I don’t understand it all. But I understand now why my dad took me in for those vaccines, and I know it was because he had my best interests at heart even though I never would have understood it at the time. The mind of God is so much higher than mine. He asks for my trust and has proven His love for me by the cross. How can I deny my most awesome, holy, loving God? I dare not. I will not use the excuse of not understanding to justify rejecting Him.